Moontanman

I think it's pretty obvious society, at least first world culture, doesn't have the morals it once had... The flaw in asking about computers and consciousness is in what is expected. Many people think an intelligent computer would just be turned on and suddenly start being conscious, humans don't start out conscious in that sense we have to learn how to respond and deal with reality in such a way that shows us to be conscious or aware. A computer no matter how complex would almost certainly have to be taught to be conscious and aware. Also in most peoples minds the concept of the creator has to be a super intelligent conscious being when in fact there is no need for that the be the case even if you assume the existence of a creator... as I have said before maybe some brobdingnagian creature eats dark matter and due to it's digestive system being inefficient only a small amount is turned into the waste product of baryonic matter the rest is excreted as the remaining dark matter and an additional waste product of dark energy. Makes as much sense as an all knowing, all seeing, eternal creator... As for the OP's remarks about god just fucking with us using earthquakes and such, nothing has been seen to occur that cannot be explained by natural means, I suspect very strongly the last bastion of religious belief in the idea of a creator hinging on the creation of the universe is a false hope, eventually that little god gap will close as well..

The question in OT was "What if doG is dead" I think it makes no difference, there is no evidence of his existence, so either he doesn't exist or he does and ignores us completely. How could we tell if he is dead?

CO2 is relatively inert, I am sure there are ways to react it chemically but I am sure it take more energy to do that than you would get back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car

Depends on how you are extracting the energy, if you mean similar to the method of compressed air powered cars then yes, if you mean use it to grow plants to make burnable materials then yes, if you mean react it with something else probably not...

Because no other world view can punish you beyond the grave... that is a unique aspect of religion, one that allows it to make good men commit evil deeds...

Sam, religion comes from humans, not just the behaviors it requires, that is pretty much my entire point, religion does not come from some outside source, it is made up by humans to control humans. I think the main disconnect came when religion started to be written down, until then it was a morality play of the moral standards of it's day which changed as the stories were retold and behaviors evolved. Writing them down froze religion in a bronze age of attitudes that have not served us well since and have indeed contributed to horrific deeds that only a belief in the supernatural can justify and the fundamentalist fringes are consistently trying to drive religion back in the direction of those frozen obsolete morals...

The relativity of morals is a secular idea not religious, the very thing they most often assert is that without belief in gods there can be no morals or that everyone would go out and rape and pillage. I am well aware of the subjectivity of morals and culture the problem I have is the assertions the religious make that I, since I have no belief in the supernatural, am immoral and cannot have moral behavior by definition. In fact they claim that not only do all morals derive from god believers in god are by definition moral and that the morals as proscribed in the bible are not only objectively moral but must be followed and that god gives them not just the commandment but the authority to enforce those morals on everyone else... That is the reason I keep harping on the morals proscribed in the Bible... and the power the threat of eternal hell fire grants those morals...

Greylorn do you want to back up that assertion that the big bang and abiogenesis are fictional in the same respect as santa claus in reference to evidentiary support?... Oh btw, good to see you again greylorn, still pedaling that same digital demise of dna?

So You have nothing to refute what I said other than an insulting remark about my spelling skills which my spell checker refutes easily... brobdingnagian http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Brobdingnagian

Once you start speculation on what caused the universe why do you go a god? Maby some brobdingnagian creature just excretes universes mindlessly?

I have never stated that every story in the bible was not moral, but it's difficult to find many and i bet I can find many more non moral ones than you can moral... No No No! The village was not being kept safe, the SOB wanted to give his virgin daughters to an angry crowd to be raped to save two angels... How immoral can it get... no wait making a rape victim marry her rapist, killing anyone who is homosexual, killing all non virgin on their wedding night, killing disrespectful children... damn... the list is long and sad and that ignore the child rape and genocide demanded by god...

I understand what you are saying, I also understand the belief system we are dealing with, moderates cannot even here be reasoned with, how can we even discuss this reasonably with people who do not require evidence of their beliefs to believe?

So you want to go down that rathole? If god created the universe then what created god? If you say we can't know that then how is the notion of god any better than saying we can't know the what caused the universe? If you say god is eternal then why not say the universe is eternal? Just because we can't at this time say what came before or where the substance of the universe came from don't make god did it an answer...

Uh huh.... So offering your virgin daughters to be raped by an angry crowd to protect angels is moral... give me a break...

Separate but equal never is, it wasn't pertaining to race nor is it pertaining to gender. Why do woman need to be protected if they are equal? What are they being protected from?

If we are going to continue to claim the bible as a moral guide and a history book this discussion is over, while some laws are based in biblical laws that does not make them moral nor does it mean they originated in the bible... The bible is a history book the same way Batman is a history of new york city... I will again address the OT, discussion with true believers is meaningless, when you fear eternal torment for stepping out of line reason and evidence has gone out the door... A normally good man can be motivated to do horrific things once he believes in eternal hell fire as a punishment for all crimes, minor and or major. The fix is in, following all 613 biblical laws is as near to impossible as impossible can be and hell is waiting.... and if your local religious authority tells you to kill your wife if she's not a virgin on your wedding night or kill her if she wants to talk about another god then if you really believe you'll do it... you have no choice eternal hell fire awaits you and her.... So few of the biblical stories have any moral value Sam it's difficult to understand why you would even consider asserting such a thing... Not to mention that the majority are the very antithesis of moral behavior...

That would actually be my point, religion must remain chained, it cannot be allowed to regain its former control over society, modern technology would give religion access to power that previous religious authorities only had wet dreams about....

So, you think the ten commandments predate any moral behavior and organized society? The ten commandments... four deal with how to worship god, one tells me not to covet my neighbor's ass, the other five are so damn obvious to anyone with even a tiny amount of empathy they should be self evident to any intelligent social species and in fact i would argue are the cornerstone of our evolved social behavior... ie hijacked by religion and hijacked quite recently, since the pentateuch was compiled around 2500 years ago. I agree, Obama recently sentenced all who vote republican to hell for all eternity... First of all a huge number of witches were burnt in places other than Salem over a very long period of time along with boiling Jews in oil for eating meat on a Friday, a huge number of tortures for various offenses from adultery to blasphemy, usually pointless and extremely long lasting and painful and various other atrocities that most men would never have agreed to without the threat of eternal torment. The vast majority of these people were no threat to anyone and in fact were often simply unlucky enough to run afoul of GOD... or his earthly representatives. Oh I am beginning to understand you...

You asked about earth's spin axis, that has nothing to do with earth's magnetic field or at least the magnetic field doesn't control the spin axis. As for the Earths magnetic field I'm sure that some very powerful magnets might confuse compass needles under the right circumstances over limited distances...

Have you read the ten commandments? Do you know how many of them really pertain to human moral behavior? Do you think it's really necessary to tell people not to steal and murder or lie and use ten commandments to tell those basic things? Do you think all religions teach that? Do you think that before religion hijacked those things no one had any idea about empathy? No, no one else can dehumanize you and threaten you beyond the grave, this is avery important point, please think about it... There was society well before there was the religions we know and hate love today... I admit that there is religion and there is RELIGION primitive religions did not have the power that the modern ones have and few of them if any threatened anyone who disagreed with eternal hell fire.... This is very important to understand, a man can be made to do quite a bit if he believes that even death cannot rescue him...

Your confusion is your own, I understand what iNow is saying. Yes religion can contribute both good and bad but the good that religion contributes has been hijacked away from natural human social behavior and all that is left is the bad behavior that religion actively promotes. In fact i would say that religion not only hijacks natural human altruistic behavior and claims it as being rooted in religion it also magnifies the natural behaviors that humans try to suppress as well as adding it's own evil... You can say wars are started by things other than religion and you would of course be correct but nothing can dehumanize the "other" better than religion and threaten you beyond the grave if you don't go with the religious demands for that dehumanization... Only modern secularization of religion has allowed the smiling ingratiating version of religion we see today, in places where religion is law it is more likely you find the same dehumanizing behavior that religion allowed itself to promulgate back the law was religion and religion was the law....

Of course not TR, it's probably still snowing where you are....