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Everything posted by Moontanman
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Indeed...
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So, does anyone have any ideas about how detect aliens inside our solar system? Can we use current technology to detect them?
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The source of morality for theists and atheists
Moontanman replied to ewmon's topic in General Philosophy
Ewmon. what would you do if you knew someone was a witch? What do you do to teenagers who refuse to behave? What do you do to someone who wears a garment made of different types of fibers? Jesus said the old laws still apply so what do you do? I know lots of witches or pagans and Wiccans as they like to call themselves... should I be rounding them up for a good old fashioned witch fry? Not too far back in the history of the US witches were burned at the stake, in Europe I think drowning them was the preferred solution. Go back a three hundred years and various protestant denominations were killing each other over who was worshiping their version of god the right way... In recent history Catholics and Protestants were killing each other but go back a couple centuries and you would probably be the guest of honor at a burning at the stake due to your modern beliefs. The Christianity you follow has been gelded by secular laws, the morals you follow are secular morals ewmon... I suggest you watch this video, 10 minutes out of your life to see the truth. While It's mostly aimed at creationists it is relevant to this conversation. -
All this talk about element 115 has a source and the source is not extraterrestrial, Bob Lazar started that particular little idea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lazar I'm not in the mood to rehash Lazar's horse feathers but he also stated that humans were GM being that aliens created out of Homo erectus to mine gold for them, he claimed the info was available and he was required to read it when he worked at area 51...
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Ok let's say you are in fact correct, EBE's are visiting us, abducting us in their sleep, we can't fight them because they can control our own weapons to the point of making them useless... What does this admission of yes they are here get us? What can we do about such powerful foes?
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I agree, an emerging technological civilization in their midst would have to interesting if they are anything like us at all. Actually even though it's possible that many different species occupy the same ort clouds a planet with complex life could still be rare and worthy of investigation... Bob Lazar would disagree but that is another thread for sure. I am trying to avoid technologies that go beyond what we are capable of, fusion of course is just "ten years away" but things like worm holes are highly speculative and the more such magical technologies you add the more meaningless the speculation becomes IMHO. While there is indeed a school of thought that agrees with your assessment the fossil record of life on Earth seems to indicate that vertebrates almost didn't make the cut while a great many different invertebrates have been suppressed by the evolution of vertebrates. I often wonder about invertebrates with internal skeletons... lots of potential there i think. isn't there a novel or two about intelligent cephalopods from another reality invading the earth or something, one of the few I missed evidently... If octopus lived as long as humans they would be our over lords... Arthropods could be a better bet...
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My little pet hypothesis depends on the idea that any such colonies should be detectable via waste heat, WISE I have been told wasn't sensitive enough to detect such small objects but it shouldn't be impossible with a little better tech... Some problems I see with connecting this to the UFO phenomena is why would they be interested in us at all, why don't we detect any transmissions from them, and why are most if not all the aliens reported to have been encountered humanoid, the humanoid part is difficult to explain, us being occasionally checked out by resident aliens is fairly easy to justify...
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Without controlled fusion such colonies become somewhat less than likely. My thinking lies along the lines of an indigenous species colonizing their own planetary system via artificial colonies, as demand for metals is diminished by the advent of carbon based building materials the objects further out from their sun become more desirable. Inhabitants of such colonies would eventually be so far removed from their home planet that going back would be difficult if not impossible due to lower gravity producing structures being easier to build ( I am assuming rotation of colonies to replace gravity) Eventually after thousands of generations these people would lose interest in planets, their artificial colonies become home and they adapt to those conditions as they continue to colonize their own stars ort cloud and utilize it for materials to build colonies and replace loses to their artificial biospheres. The jump to the next stars ort cloud would be a natural leap and not so distant as trying to travel from their home planet to another stars planet in one trip since ort clouds can stretch as much as half way to the next star and that stars ort could boundary would be a short hop, this would result in colonization of that star and so on, slowly they could colonize the entire galaxy, no habitable planets necessary or even wanted. In fact stars with extensive clouds of material instead of planets might be the most desirable and the type of star would be irrelevant...
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I should have been more clear, my idea is that "they" have colonized the distant objects in our solar system, along with the similar object all over the galaxy and have little or no interest in planets. This ties in with my pet hypothesis that UFOs are the aliens occasionally checking us out but they are not really interested in planets but a rising civilization might interest some of them in the same way some scientists are interested in some distant primitive island culture. Detecting their waste heat output would seem to be the best way to detect such free colonies, think of a rotating sphere or torus as possible colonies, everything they need is available in small bodies and they would avoid gravity wells. I thought I had detailed this hypothesis in a dedicated thread but I can't find it. It has to do with the possibility of a civilization colonizing the entire galaxy in a few million years but instead of long trips to star to colonize planets I think they would more probably colonize via artificial colonies freely moving around in ort clouds or Kiuper belt like places and since the ort cloud stretches almost half way to the next star such colonies would be able to travel to the next ort cloud not much harder that traveling to the next ort cloud object. Due to the large amount of resources represented by the ort cloud and other small bodies several civilizations could coexist and colonize the same stars with little or no competition for resources. In fact stars like Vega that have large amounts of small objects but no large planets would be preferred the spectral type of the star would irrelevant... They should be detectable by their waste heat...
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How difficult would it be to detect an extraterrestrial craft/colony inside our solar system? I think we can assume they can generate power at least on a level that we can so assuming a moderate output of 1000 megawatts most of which would have to radiated away as waste heat at some point after it was used to do work "how far away could we detect such a source of infrared"? Feel free to correct me if these assumptions are unreasonable or if you can think of a better model.
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I think it is reasonable to assert that our technology has passed the point that if we wanted to we could search for such craft/colonies inside our solar system. Such objects would have to radiate in the infra red quite strongly, assuming they use power and the laws of physics aren't being violated. Military radar "supposedly" already tracks as many as 500 anomalous objects coming into the earths atmosphere and leaving the earths atmosphere every year, the ones leaving are unusual enough for me at least to ask "what are they?" I think the evidence of photos, radar contacts and sightings, multiple independent observers and of trained observers, is enough to warrant such a search. But blathering on endlessly about such things as abductions and fairies and elves are never going to be productive... We need to actually search for evidence not debate the little bit of evidence we have forever...
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Some guns are far more dangerous than others, my shotgun is far less dangerous than say an auto pistol, some people are far less dangerous than others. I don't play with my gun, I don't take it out and show it to people or handle it unnecessarily I never chamber a round unless i am going to shoot it. You would be horrified to know how many people treat their guns like toys for adults. No one is going to be killed accidentally by my gun but there are real differences between guns, some are just dangerous others not so much. My current gun has only been shot once, at the factory, I have of course shot many guns, I used to be an avid hunter when I was a kid, I lost interest as an adult. When I do go to shoot i go to a range, when i owned a pistol, or out into the game lands where no one is in range and I can shoot against a solid hillside. My wife is more of a gun advocate than i am, she is very good with a pistol and used to practice at the Sheriffs department range when she owned a pistol. I know it sounds like a bad argument but i don't fear a responsible gun owner but so many tend to view guns as some sort of toy or contest to own they do worry me, sometimes it reminds me of people who own tricked out 4X4 trucks, all jacked up with huge tires, wenches, high water intakes, huge engines, and they never take them off road.... it's a contest to see whose manhood is bigger via who has a bigger toy... i do not ascribe to that premise, when i had a jeep it was modest and unassuming and it took me to many off road locations quite well, I view my gun much the same way, it's not to impress anyone but a criminal who wants to do me harm.
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I have often wonder how you could assert that something as definitively extraterrestrial, once they assert that my horse feathers meter pegs out...
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John you know that you can't use statistics to predict individuals actions. I know a great many people with guns, they range from people I wouldn't trust with a sling shot to people I would trust with my life. Guess who is causing the problem? I do admit that people who seem the most enamored with guns are the ones who would seem least safe to have them. My thoughts on this is to require at least as much training to own a gun as it is to own and operate an automobile. This seems to be the most reasonable attitude to me at this point, i want to reserve my right to defend my self from a criminal but I should be required to demonstrate an ability to safely operate a gun. As i said before hunting rifles, hand guns, and concealed carry are different issues but one thing is clear, if honest citizens give up their guns they will be the only people who do not have them, criminals are not going to give up their guns and most gun deaths are due to criminals committing crimes with guns not honest citizens gone crazy... The media portrays this as though most gun deaths are due to other wise honest people killing people either by accident or due to being nucking futs, this is not true... In fact i would assert that the fear of a victim having a gun is enough to deter many criminals, poor neighborhoods where legal gun ownership is low simply because owning one is very expensive allows those who commit crimes with guns a free hand... As i sit here in my own house behind locked doors I know I am an unlikely victim, I have a house with solid doors that have solid dead locks, my yard is fenced in and the gates have solid well made locks on them as well, i have three dogs who seldom miss any odd noise and bark immediately, one is howling right now but he is communicating with the other neighborhood dogs. I can tell by the tone of his barks he is not afraid of something new. I am in a new and relatively safe neighborhood now, the fence and locks are mainly to keep my dogs from wondering around and being a nuisance. But in my old neighborhood, every last house on my street had things stolen and few actual assaults took place except for my house. I give most of the credit to my dogs but once I had to threaten a man who was a neighbor by telling him if he came into my house I would kill him, that i had the means to do so and no problem with doing so. I talked to the local police, he was an ex con and had several warrants out for his arrest which he somehow continually avoided, he was a suspect in several break-ins and one rape in my neighborhood. The police actually told me the best way to deal with him if he threatened me again was to kill him because he was likely to kill me or rape my wife if he got the chance (he actually threatened to do just that), he was a crack head couldn't hold a job and when he ran out of crack he started looking for something to steal, his young daughter would come to my house to hide from him regularly. He was in and out of jail so much it was difficult to keep track of when he was around. But a week end seldom went by the police weren't at his house looking for him for questioning... his girlfriend was as bad and waved a gun around all the time but it always vanished when the police showed up as did the man... take my gun, I don't think so... but then i only have one gun, I see no need for many guns or assault weapons. I am glad i am no longer in such close proximity to such a dangerous man... that I know of... but i will not give up my shot gun because some crazy killed people for what ever reason... I no longer keep my gun loaded but I do keep shells handy just in case...
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I will agree that hand guns are dangerous, just handling them, even by knowledgeable professionals, can end in tragedy. The bad thing is that hand guns are often marketed as safer and easier to handle than long guns. Concealed carry is yet another can of worms, few crimes are committed by legal guns, we just hear about it more due to the fact that criminals usually don't just shoot people for fun like crazies do. However convincing Joe home owner he cannot have a shot gun for home protection is going to be a hard sell. Knowing that criminals are not going to stop having guns is going to be a big stumbling block. In the US it is a given that the police cannot protect you, the best they can do is investigate after the fact, not having a gun has resulted in many deaths, rapes, and beatings associated with criminals having the upper hand. Convincing me I am safer by not having my shot gun is gonna take more than an appeal to emotion... Hunting rifles are yet another matter and saying that assault style weapons are more dangerous than any other semi auto weapon is difficult to show and banning them accomplishes nothing but political capital.. That pesky thing called a constitution is in the way for banning guns completely anyway...
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I used the word silly because you equated seeing a light in the sky as evidence of UFOs are alien space craft, I used the word silly because you saw a beam of light that traveled less than c, I used the word silly because you described an object accelerating away at more than c. If you can give some positive evidence that alien abductions are any more than waking dreams similar to if not identical to incubus and succubus dreams of antiquity I will with draw "silly" from that context but so far you have failed to do so...
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First of all the wheat must be separated from the chaff, the majority of sightings can be explained, it's those niggling few that just can't be explained that intrigue me. I must ask what would be evidence enough to justify continued investigation? the origin of meteorites was ignored literally for centuries due to the common knowledge that rocks could not fall from the sky. Aliens cannot be here because of the distances to the stars is a similar statement and used to negate even a discussion of the phenomena. As i said earlier the military calls objects seen leaving the earths atmosphere "fast walkers" if an object is "seen" leaving the earths atmosphere isn't that cause for "I wonder what that was" the military simply saying "oh it's nothing we see them all the time" is not an explanation. Again what would it take to justify researching the phenomena? What was this? It was seen by defense satellites... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tehran_UFO_incident SwansonT have you seen this? What is your opinion, believe it or not I do value your take on these things... http://brumac.8k.com/trent1.html
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I agree, alien abduction is almost certainly an extension of human brains and things like waking dreams. Humans have been "seeing" things like succubus and incubus and the associated mythology for many years. a great many abduction cases strain the credibility of anyone with a rational mind, being abducted from the middle of a large apartment building in the center of a large city just can't be true on any level humans can understand... While i agree I think that ridicule started by the military to ward off any real investigation has contributed to this and left the area open to pseudo science. Any realistic attempt to study what is going on would take huge sums of money away from "real" research, this attitude that all UFO report must be hogwash gets us nothing in return but hogwash... The fact that the military has a term for radar contacts entering and leaving the earths atmosphere because they happen regularly is something that begs investigation not dismissal... I wish i knew how to proceed on this, past reports that really needed to be investigated were dismissed by the military in ways that were insulting to anyone with half a brain and these explanations were used to ridicule anyone who wanted to look deeper. Now it's really too late to investigate them and these days the popularity of hoaxes poisons the well so thoroughly no real conspiracy is necessary...
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Why can't we all just get along.... sorry, I couldn't help myself. If all we want to do is talk about alien abductions, fairies at the bottom of our gardens and how science is orchestrating a huge cover up or make vapid claims about witnesses being unreliable then we need to stop this right now. All of the claims both pro and con are valid to a point, alien abduction is almost certainly a psychological phenomena, there is serious doubt about the veracity of the Dr. who claims they were made of "obviously extraterrestrial" material even the existence of these object has not stood up to peer review. Writing book doesn't automatically make you right... Eye witness accounts can be seriously flawed, this is true, but multiple independent eye witness accounts backed up by radar and many of the witnesses being trained observers has a bit more weight than some drukin' idiot who passed and out and woke up thinking he saw aliens. These objects have been seen and photographed as well as painted by radar, they have left physical traces and even pieces have been found and analyzed (the results were indeterminate) The phenomena is a mystery, in fact i am sure it is several different mysteries unfortunately combined into one. What they are I don't know but to me not knowing means more investigation is needed. Ridiculing them out of hand serves no one any better than believing all of it with out any filters. We need to concentrate on the best reports that cannot be explained, trying to include reports that are silly or simply have too little data to be eliminate possibilities gets us no place but a merry go round of conspiracy theories and finger pointing. There really are some cases that beg for more investigation, we are rapidly approaching an era of technology where we should be able to detect any alien space craft that comes close to the earth, perhaps even those any place inside our solar system. Conspiracy theories and ridicule get us no place, the only sensible way to discuss this is to site specific incidences and see if they can be explained in a reasonable way if not then they are unknowns but even unknowns can be intelligently speculated about if there is a reasonable amount of data. Even if it turns out there is no reason to suppose the alien hypothesis there is still a huge gap in our knowledge when we try to explain why humans see these things, if it is psychological even that could teach us something interesting about the human brain. My main objection to the idea of aliens visiting us has nothing to to with the Drak equation, the quality of eye witnesses, or any lack of evidence... Humanoids, why are they virtually always humanoids? Why are there so many of them considering the travel times between stars why would they bother to land in Joe Blows back yard instead of contact us from orbit? Why all the anal probes? Some of this stuff at least smacks of humans having delusions. But saying there are is no physical evidence is simply not true... The US military is guilty of a cover up, what they were or are covering up is debatable. And yes i have anecdotal reports told to me by military personal, no I don't mean something I read about it but real people in real time telling me what they saw... interesting but still not evidence...
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I'd love to see this... It's also interesting to note that air defense radar and satellites pick up unidentified objects as well... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastwalkers
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How does this mean a light in the sky? A light in the sky is just that, a light in the sky, to be a UFO means it has characteristics that cannot be explained in terms of current knowledge, a light in the sky can be explained many different ways... A UFO is not a light in the sky any more than a theory is anything you think might be true...
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yes... in the same way that theory means something some one thought up last night.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO
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Shouldn't that be where the investigation begins? Again i find myself supporting a thread that started out silly but i do know of official reports that could only have been foreign technology and if some one other than us had that technology then our efforts are like trying to develop a superior P-51 mustang when everyone else is developing stealth fighters... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonnie_Zamora_incident
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I have a lot of respect for Neil but in this case he followed the party line of UFOs are unidentified lights in the sky and chose the most ridiculous part of the phenomena, one that does have a prosaic explanation and set it up as a strawman. There are reports that involve many independent witnesses, more than one independent radar contact, and trained eye witnesses even physical traces asserting only ridiculous reports only shows he has not looked into the problem beyond the official "it's silly" premise hawked by debunkers who seem to be as passionate and ludicrous as the true believers...
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I'm not sure it can be asserted that this is new behavior for the spiders. More like it is newly discovered behavior of spiders by humans..