Moontanman

PeterJ, if you have special information pertaining to this don't let Immortal intimidate you, he is failing miserably to support his assertions so far...

As I said in another post I looked into it further and found the study to be less than objective. But I do know that anti gun people are less than objective as well. This entire thread pretty much shows that to be true, emotions run high on this issue, real proof of either point of view will have to be over whelming and take into account various "beliefs" I disagree, in fact I would point out that this is obviously mistaken. I've got a gun is indeed the first step a reasonable person uses before actually using his gun if at all possible. Simply stating I have a gun can defuse a situation, the next step of course is to show your gun, then draw it, then fire it. The steps may not always be so clear cut but the threat of a gun is indeed using a gun...

It looks like a lot of ideology and statistical manipulation to me from both sides. I'm not sure there is a clear cut conclusion from what I've found so far. But the guy I quoted is clearly not objective... It seems to be an emotionally charged issue, pro gun people would rather die than admit that guns aren't the savior they want guns to be and anti gun people would rather die than admit that guns might not be the evil they want them to be. When i get the time I'll look for more information...

The author is somewhat less than objective http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck More on this http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html This seems to be a finger pointing problem... I'm right/your wrong with the statistics being manipulated to support both sides http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/peer.html This is a quagmire of opinions and different representations of data... http://rinr.fsu.edu/issues/2009winter/cover01_a.asp

I see no evidence for any god or gods much less any intervention by them. That makes any god a monster not worthy of anything but my contempt... Please give some examples of a god or gods intervening throughout history...

What is the deal with Adam Lanza's mother? Was she really a gun enthusiast? Or did she just buy guns for her son to keep him happy?

It's more likely evidence that if a god or gods exists he ignores every one equally...

That is quite an assertion, can you show some evidence that is true?

Actually you are the one making the positive assertion, the burden of proof is on you.

So in other words to my question of Have these sciences added anything to sum total on human knowledge? Your answer is No...

I provided this link earlier http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html It would appear that there is a different school of thought as to how why and when guns are used and how effective they are.

Are you saying the effect of idiots is compounded as their numbers increase?

Yes it was that way at one time here as well... To be honest, and I don't think I'm going to get many votes from gun enthusiasts on this, but I think a pump 410 gauge shot gun modified for use indoors would be the best bet, hand guns require too much skill to use effectively.

New amendment in the news... http://www.theonion.com/articles/right-to-live-life-in-complete-stunned-horror-adde,30749/

I often wonder what is it about modern society that triggers these events... 50 years ago guns were much easier to get but I don't know of any thing like that happening back then.

I'm sorry it was post 194...

Did you catch my link in post 194? ed:wrong post cited I agree but there is no way any reasonable sized police force could guarantee my safely, home invasions by themselves are one of the reasons I keep a gun and dogs. An alarm system might help but they are expensive and of doubtful value in suburban areas where any arrival time will always be ten minutes or more, a smash and grab could be over by then and kidnapping the victim can happen as well if not outright murder. These things are rare I know, three in my county last few months, one death, none of the home owners had guns... I agree, no need for military type automatic weapons, but home defense can be helped by weapons designed to be used indoors, short barrels, light weight, small shot so you don't kill your neighbors by accident if you miss...

Yeah, there is a lot of alarms going off with that one. I can see some problems A teacher who is not comfortable with guns feels she is compelled to get and and carry it to protect her students. Guns aren't the toy things we see on TV, most people cannot just pick up a gun and use it effectively much less safely. It genuinely does take training and dedication to use a hand gun. You need to shoot it regularly, train regularly and then hope you don't freeze or get the shakes if a real danger crops up. I don't see teachers and professional grade shootists exactly being a region that intersects often on a graph... Now obviously most hand gun owners are not professional grade but they do go through training and most people i know who do conceal carry train with at least some regularity with their weapons because they simply love to shoot. I know everyone seems to like to think of gun owners as wild eyed crazies looking for a reason to kill someone but the reality is that most are sane rational people who felt the need for protection. In the training you are taught to understand "with great power comes responsibility" I know I couldn't help myself... I quit because it was just more responsibility than I could deal with. (and my hands shake pretty bad now days) Killing someone is not something you do lightly, killing someone by accident would be life shattering to any sane person. Most people that conceal carry understand the responsibility, take it seriously, and most of the time you never know who they are. But it does take some dedication that just anyone might not have... That might make a teacher who was carrying the gun because she felt she had to, not quite as dangerous as someone who thinks a gun is a toy but still not the best person to have a gun out in public... And hand guns are not something that everyone can use, it's a skill set that some people just can't get right. I can't play soccer, requiring me to do so would be a farce no matter how hard i tried... guns would be similar i think.

Some interesting takes on this in the UK, it seems gun violence is up 89% in the UK sine the late 90's http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html That's a bit harsh, I keep my shotgun at the head of my bed, against the wall so i can get it immediately if it is needed, by any reasonable standard I don't think most people would consider me paranoid... How would you suggest we do that? I keep house dogs just for that reason. I have lived in neighborhoods where every one around was robbed but not me, large barking dogs tend to discourage that sort of thing and the dogs give me a heads up when a stranger comes around the house as well. They actually go to the door and sniff at the bottom of the door when someone walks down the street in front of my house... Hand guns... easy to carry and conceal... takes skill to use effectively... they need to be locked with a trigger lock at least if kids are in the house... in my state hand guns have to locked if a child is living in the house...

Please elaborate on this, what "other sciences" has the west ignored? Have these sciences added anything to sum total on human knowledge? Have they bettered the human condition in any way comparable to "Western" Science? What technologies are based in these other sciences? Did they contribute to elimination of disease? Have they sent man to the moon? Do they feed the world? Come on Immortal, you keep making these vague assertions of your ideas about god being based in science and so far you have failed to show any connection at all other than vague claims and interpretations of misunderstood science concepts...

I cannot and would not argue that insane people need to be allowed to own guns. I do support the idea of gun licenses being hard to get and the mental heath of the person should be checked and I think the license should need to be renewed every few years... Most importantly I would support the total ban of automatic weapons. The link I gave earlier would seem to indicate that guns in the hands of citizens are being used successfully in self defense. Guns are far more likely to be used lawfully than unlawfully. http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html Some here seem to think that self defense is not worth the idea that someone might go nuts and kill people but I say that self defense is a legitimate use of guns and that self defense is worth the risk. The key here is not to ban all guns but to keep guns out of the hands of crazies and criminals, yes I understand this cannot be 100% effective but at some point people have to be held accountable for their actions and since the police cannot protect me and mine I cannot see why I cannot have a gun to defend myself... until I can be assured that law enforcement can protect me I think owning a gun is reasonable but I see no reason to own automatic weapons. I am not a nut...

Immortal, please show us that evidence you keep talking about, so far all you do is make claims and appeals to authority...

England has had mass shootings as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings Not as many but Great Britain is not as populous a country either.. Then you have the rest of the world... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers USA isn't quite as dangerous as you might think due to our guns but if anyone really wants to seriously limit the number of guns in the USA they would have to work it out over generations, slowly limiting gun ownership as time goes on... When I was 11 years old I went to the hardware store next to the grocery store by my self while my mom shopped and bought my own gun, a 410 gauge single shot shotgun and a box of shells. Cost me $20, money I earned putting up hay. my youngest son now owns that gun. But he couldn't buy a gun himself until he was 18 and had to have a back ground check.... yes it is happening but it is slow... Obviously you are correct but then my assertion is geared more toward home defense than concealed carry. This shows that there is many different angles on this. Concealed carry is a different issue than home defense. http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html

The illusion of protection? That illusion would quickly become a nightmare for someone who broke into my house but then again i don't have hand guns or automatic weapons in my house nor is it likely I'll go down to a local school and kill someone either. I honestly have to wonder about the mental health of someone who wants the most dangerous weapon they can afford to buy but the desire for automatic military assault type weapons is crazy. There is a need for closer regulation for sure. There is a cottage industry in providing the parts necessary to turn semi auto weapons into full automatic weapons, this needs to stop now. I waver a little on whether or not the military style but semi auto weapons should be allowed but as long as the parts can be bought to make them full auto you have to wonder if they should be sold at all. Trip, I can't get behind the idea of allowing any and all weapons. All things must be limited in some way and if you think the US military would have a problem rounding up it's citizens just because they are armed then you are not aware of the reality. It would probably just give them reason to use over whelming force, we citizens are no match for the military no matter how you look at it. I think regulation is the answer, much like I favor regulation of drugs. Every time some kid OD's on drugs you get this wave of patriotism in the War On Drugs but ultimately drugs are more dangerous when driven under ground than they are if allowed to actually be controlled. Tighter controls on who has guns would do the same thing as eliminating them and in a shorter time frame with less resistance ..

AC could not possibly been the cause of that, sounds more like dry air for some reason. AC will not remove anything from the air that you need... Methanol?