Moontanman

And what precisely would that reason be? te he he he....

It's quite possible to believe that god is in control of everything through naturalistic methods, it's not God or even religion that opposes science it's creationists who insist that what the bible says has to be true, in effect they claim that either god did things exactly the way that the bible says or there is no god, it's their main claim and it's false. They create the strawman that to believe what science has discovered makes you an atheist, it does not...

So, if you believe that what we know about the universe so far you cannot be a religious person??? All science says for sure is we don't have the evidence so far to say how the universe came into being. It's not an atheistic view point it's simply what the evidence points to so far. Could a god have brought the universe into existence? maybe then again maybe not, if you prefer to believe a god brought the universe into existence it doesn't change the evidence of the expansion of the universe, science simply says we don't know, because we don't have any evidence of how the universe came into being, the religious say god did it with no evidence to support that assertion.... science is more honest in my estimation but science does not say god could not have done it.

No that is not how evolution works, seriously njaohnt, you really need to watch this guys videos and stop listening to what people who don't know jack say science says... I am not being insulting, you don't know enough to even ask the right questions, at least I have read the bible and spent many years trying to under stand religion. spend an hour or so trying to under stand how the world works... watch the entire made easy series... there are 11 of 12 of these videos, watch them, then ask questions

Great video, I have long supported the idea that life forms inevitably and is not some far fetched highly unlikely event. Thomas Gold also supported a similar view in his book The Deep Hot Biosphere...

I may not be sophisticated enough to say the question is somehow invalid but I know that every debate we have here on SFN puts me further and further into the camp of "Theists are insane" I know they are not all not really crazy but the need to define god with science or to somehow twist ancient documents into saying what science says or demanding that texts like the bible are absolutely true word for word when the world around us easily falsifies that notion is so bizarre to me I am inclined to think they are broken somehow. Giving control of your life to people who without religion thier best efforts would be multi level marketing scammers is a little bit difficult as well. The idea that religion is an infectious meme appeals to me because it suggests these people are not insane but motivated by something that has taken control of them. Religion is a powerful idea, the idea that death is just the beginning of another life of worshiping god, singing hosannas for an eternity is a bit less than appealing except when you compare it to death. The Mormon religious texts are, if you are a man, rather seductive, you get to make your own planets and populate them with your own offspring.... sounds like something that could hold my attention for many many years. Personally I'd rather make whole universes, with laws of physics that allow a Star Trek like civilization to exist. maybe lots of different types of life forms based on things other than carbon that would allow almost all planets to have life... But i am suspicious of things that are too good to be true and God certainly seems like one of those things, like a prince in Africa who it turns out is my great great great great grandfather and I am his only living heir and $1,000,000,000 is waiting for me to pick it up.... yeah sure happens all the time... But if i start my own religion i can get that $1,000,000,000 by revealing the truth of what god wants, yeah, we guys get to make our own universes, god told me this, we guys get to have as many wives as we want, sorry girls but someone has to have the babies and i can't do that, I'd at least make childbirth orgasmic beyond belief, probably have to drop the females IQ points by about 75 or so, they have to be happy and that's the easiest way, make them equal to men not doing it for you? Oh well i am too old for that harem shit anyway...

Waters? As compelling as you think that interpretation is i see no reason to assume you are correct, in fact I do not see this at all. How could there have been light and dark with no earth, no sun and no moon? Water is outer space? That a pretty big leap of faith don't you think? There is no either, and water is not space, space is a vacuum. The firmament is clearly the sky, there is no water above the sky. There is no water above the sky or heaven. I see no mention of any of this in Genesis. Mosheh Thezion, while I respect your right to your own beliefs, i do not respect your right to your own reality. you are simply twisting scripture to fit your own beliefs. you are changing the meaning of words to make your need to believe in god fit. If you believe this even though it is obviously a twisted interpretation of scripture then have at it, but the bible does not say these things or at least not what you seem to think they mean. You cannot have your own reality. The bible clearly does not mention galaxies or super clusters or even stars as anything but lights in the sky, in fact the bible clearly says the stars can be moved by storms and come down and fight with humans. Your web site failed miserably as does your interpretation of Genesis, I can't even give you points for trying, you leave out much that conflicts directly with reality and twist the rest to fit. epic failure but believe what you will... yes it can, the bible is clearly not true, if gods supposed word is clearly not true then that is evidence he does not exist, god is made up by men as is the bible. you cannot have it both ways, either the bible is true and as such evidence of god or it is not and as such is evidence against the existence of god. This is simply dishonest, either you are using the bible as evidence or you are not you cannot do both. You claim scripture as evidence then say you do not... which is it?

That is quite seriously none of your business, I am a member of this forum, i understand the discussion quite well. Yes, i am, and so is she i am quite sure, both of us as well as many others are able to do so. Then why would you post such obviously flawed writings to support your god? I can use them to show you do not have any idea of what you are talking about. They fit not at all with out a considerable amount of misinterpretation. Any one can respond here, this is not a private forum or thread. I suggest you start at the beginning, take one thing at a time, and lets see if what you are asserting has anything what so ever to do with reality. Well, the devil is in the details and what you say it says is may not be what it in fact does say, who are you to say what god meant? One thing Mosheh Thezion, please stop using all the special fonts and sizes to express emotions, it proves nothing and makes it more difficult to respond to your questions. i have to wade through all the extra stuff just to get to your stuff, lets keep this as simple as possible.

njaohnt! oh how i wish i could say i am glad to see you back but sadly i cannot. You come back with the same condescending attitude you left with. Again assuming that none of us have ever given any thought to this at all and big brother njaohnt is here to show the realy really really obvious truth of the matter. Horse feathers, it was nice and sunny here on good Friday, beautiful day, the weather on any particular good friday is no different than the weather on any other particular day. I am assuming this was ajoke on your part, have you now become an atheist and just funning us? What you think is irrelevant to this discussion, evidence talks horse feathers walk my friend. My genetics and my experiences are what made me ... me See above... You honestly think this is an argument? it's childish nonsense at best, insanity at worst. Much of this is simply lies. if you want me to take the time to refute each one independently you will have to take the time to type each one. Again what you think is not relevant, evidence points to a naturalistic cause to the world around us, if you disagree show evidence of why, your inability to see it is meaningless. Why would you expect people to have grown wings?

No Mosheh Thezion, you have not shown how the bible fits with science, I have been following this discussion very closely and so far you have made that assertion several times but failed each time to show any such thing. I read your link, it was wrong and had little or no resemblance to what can be easily shown by he fossil record. You have not shown any convincing facts what so ever. if you really think you have please show us again because unless I cannot read and comprehend the English language you have not. I will be most happy to show you the error of your assertions. Your interpretations of evolution are childish and totally wrong, your assertion that there are no transitional fossils is wrong, your correlation with the big bang theory and genesis is wrong. To be honest, so far i see nothing you have asserted as being right, you are so far off the mark I saws no reason to entertain your assertions at all but if you insist i would be glad to show you in detail where you are wrong, personally i thought mooey was being nice to you, I am more than willing to tell you like it is. have faith and believe if that's what you want but to assert the things you say as the truth is just... not even close enough to be wrong, silly is closer to the mark... I honestly thought you were a child trying to get attention...

It seems to me there are a lot of scattered thoughts on this forum but this thread is the only one that claims it's self to be scattered honesty is a virtue....

It can be shown empirically that each type of land animals did not evolve independently from a different fish, in fact fish evolved into amphibians and on to reptiles to dinosaurs and mammals and on up. Each currently living life form did not evolve independently on it's own from fish. While it cannot be shown that god does not use naturalistic ways to guide evolution there is no evidence he does. The idea that the universe has to have have some guiding influence is not supported by evidence. While you are welcome to your beliefs and yours is interesting it can be shown to be false, assuming i understand what you are saying correctly, if i am wrong and you are not proposing that all animals evolved independently from a separate fish please inform me of what i am getting wrong. Not only are missing links not missing intermediate forms from monkey to ape to man have been found, in fact we can trace our ancestry all the way back to Cambrian times at least.

Care to show some evidence of Jesus before you go claiming he shared knowledge from god with anyone? Where? when? who?

I am pretty sure all UFOs are not seen in America, in fact some of the best or most compelling sightings have been in Europe, Russia, China, in fact UFO's are indeed a world wide phenomena... Also not all pictures or films are blurred and or fuzzy... And what appears to be structured craft can be seen in medieval paintings usually associated with religious themes... and some cave paintings can, without much difficulty, be shown to portray classic disc shaped UFOs in the background of the usual paintings of wild animals and people... I would like to point out that this is weak as evidence goes but it is intriguing...

Both of these have been so muddied by misinformation, attention seekers, and hoaxes I doubt either one can be objectively said to be real or not. This is an interesting video.

I have shown that I did not lie nor did I quote some one else who had lied and I also showed the slavery information was not invalid. How about addressing this issue instead of insinuating I am giving false information...

Superfusion, do you really think that being homosexual prevents a person from reproducing? Even if you are completely homosexual, sexual orientation is usually not an on off switch but more of a spectrum from heterosexual to homosexual with most people being more one than the other, (and some people liking both sexes), people are still able to have sex even it it goes against their sexual orientation and reproduce. In fact men and women when denied sexual partners of suitable sex will often turn to individuals of the same sex for sexual satisfaction as evidenced in same sex environments such as sexually divided schools and or prisons even if they are heterosexual. As for attracting the opposite sex if you are homosexual, do you think homosexual is apparent just from looking at a person? Many if not most homosexuals are not obviously effeminate men or masculine women, most of the time unless you ask you will not know. As for the advantage of being homosexual, to a family group, even if the person doesn't have off spring of their own, they can still provide support for individuals related to them in fact this support with out reproducing can allow this behavior to contribute to reproductive success of related individuals and there by support their own genes especially if resources are limited.

I would like to ask if Time had to start at the beginning of the universe. i have discussed this before and my idea is that time has always existed, time is a fundamental part of existence with out time there could be no existence but why does it have to begin with the beginning of our universe. is there a reason why or is it just an assumption that is it part of our current theories or does it have to be that way due to the mathematics i am trying to understand why time has to have a beginning.

I didn't figure you would watch the entire thing, it can be a problem to see your belief system gutted by reasonably well supported charges of plagiarism. To be honest it bothered me quite a bit, even if I didn't hold a belief in the story of Jesus it was disturbing to find out it was probably plagiarized from earlier works of the Greeks. I guess inside i still held out that at least the story of Jesus was original, and at least worth following due to the moral value of the mans teachings. I'm not being condescending, it bothered me quite a bit, Jesus and the new testament was the last part of my faith to go and it was difficult to let go of and even though I had left it behind left long ago this was difficult to watch, maybe because I had at one time believed it so deeply. But after a long day of guiding some one around the edges of the green swamp so they could take pictures of the wonders of that ecosystem and picking up several ticks, eeewww, here is the promised passages from the new testament that show Jesus lied and supported slavery. Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT) In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong. The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT) Jesus’ Predictions: 1) Jesus falsely prophesies DIRECTLY to the high priest (Caiphas) that he would live to see his second coming. Jesus uses the term “coming on the clouds of heaven”. This clearly negates the “coming” as the resurrection but as a return to the earth on CLOUDS, not his return in human form from the dead. Matthew 26:64 & Mark 14:62. "But I tell you: From now on you will see 'the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming on the clouds of heaven.'" (Matthew 26:64 NAB) Then Jesus answered, "I am; and 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" (Mark 14:62 NAB) 2) Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. Matthew 23:36 & 24:34 Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:36 NAB) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 NAB) 3) YET AGAIN, Jesus claims those standing RIGHT BEFORE HIM shall see the Armageddon. Matthew 16:28 “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Don’t let Christians lie to you and claim Jesus was referring to his modern day believers. The words “some standing HERE will not taste death” clearly refutes such nonsense. Obviously the people he was speaking to died, and curiously Jesus STILL isn’t here to claim his kingdom. 4) Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners’ lifetimes. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Mark 13:30-31 NAB) He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power." (Mark 9:1 NAB) 5) Jesus falsely predicts that some of his listeners would live to see him return and establish the kingdom of God. "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27 NAB) 6) Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John. (John 21:22) 7) Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, wars, stars, etc.) will occur within the lifetime of his listeners. He purposely defines their generation and NOT a future one. Considering that NONE of those signs took place during the resurrection and that he uses the term of “Heaven and earth shall pass away”, Clearly Jesus is prophesizing that nearly 2,000 years ago Armageddon SHOULD have occurred. Luke 21:25-33 "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen, stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand." He taught them a lesson. "Consider the fig tree and all the other trees. When their buds burst open, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near; in the same way, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Luke 21:25-33 NAB) [Editor's note: Matthew 10:23 also has Jesus telling his disciples that the second coming will occur before the disciples finish preaching in Israel: "When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23 NAB)] Also i have asked you why your version of Christianity is better than anyone else's and why your god is the only god and no the bible is not the oldest, the best, or best preserved or even the most complex holy book of the ancients. Unless you can show some reason why your version of the christian god and why the christian god is more likely to be true than any other your argument just becomes your personal opinion, not shared by many or any better than anyone else's and while you are indeed entitled to your beliefs and your opinions about them you are not entitled to your own reality...

I suggest you watch this series of videos before you dismiss the ideas here. I have to go superfusion but I will show you the scriptures that say those things when i get back this evening unless some others feel the need to do so... It is truly sad that believers do not even know their own holy books...

I know it's anecdotal but falling barometric pressure causes me considerable pain, hurricanes are too painful to describe adequately...

Yes, in one of his last sermons he declared that he would return with in the life time of some of the people who were there listening to him. Please address the slavery issue... Actually there is quite a bit of evidence he does not exist, it's called the Holy Bible... You have also failed to address why your god, indeed your version of that god, is any more real than any other god or gods, people have faith in them as well....

There is some evidence to back this up, infectious meme is what i would call it but the religious often use the idea of other religions being insanity. http://mysite.verizon.net/wsbainbridge/dl/relinsan.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion Insanity is a difficult word to define except when it is being applied to others, i have been told i am insane because i don't believe. If religion affects you in a way that inter fears with your ability to function in society in a reasonable manner I would have no problem labeling it as such, the knocks at my door that occur on a regular basis to bring me the good news even though i tell them I am not interested bring to mind the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results... I live in the middle of the bible belt in the USA it's quite possible my own experiences with these people have colored my experiences but I think a reasonable impartial judge would label a significant number of them in need of medication of some sort... As i have said before, god doesn't bother me, either he is non existent or he ignores every one equally but his fan club is a scary bunch and until Christianity was gelded by secular governments they killed people who were Christians but disagreed with there more powerful denominations only slightly less often than they killed people of totally different religions... only our secular form of government protects us from that being the standard today....

Superfusion, by now you must know that to make a positive assertion you must back it up with evidence, not baseless claims, claims oh yeah, what happened to the unicorns? Noah's Ark is still out there twisting in the wind as well. Again, why did Jesus support slavery and why did he lie about his return? His stance on slavery was and is immoral and he lied about his return.