Moontanman

Nonsense, cow heads are valuable, they have to make pink slime out of something... And you know how cows think... how exactly?

so one batshit crazy liberal paired to an entire news network full of them?

I've raised a lot of cows, you generally don't see people ignoring a human who is drowning or a child who is in trouble but not theirs... Cows are not with out some sort of mind, mostly they are contrary and react to things unseen and seem to have no concept of anything but what they want right now... wow what a bad direction to take this argument

First of all, i will concede that such practices are indeed cruel but not those are not farm animals, such "meat factories" are far from what a farm is. I challenge that the raising of animals for food is inherently cruel and leads to suffering, the people who raise them can be shown to suffer by your broad standards. Again i will concede that factory type farming is cruel but that is not farming any more than hydroponics is the same as farming in the natural environment. And I assert that simply raising animals to eat is not cruel and does not mean suffering by definition. Oh no, you opened that can of worms with your quote from Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals I cannot argue with that and I will not try to, but I like meat, fish and sea food especially, but beef as well deer is good, pork, chicken, turkey and I, like many others, will want to eat it at least occasionally and legumes and beans and lentils are still vegetables in the context we are discussing... Horse Feathers you are creating strawmen faster than i can fight them... Oh contrare, your views on farming are totally disconnected from reality, you read farm and you see a factory, not the same thing... That's true but I do get my eggs from chicken that actually run free, you can tell by the yolks if they are eating things like bugs, but I do know where my eggs come from. What does nociception mean? Would Kobe beef be ok? They actually give the animals massages and beer to drink.... it's only relevant if you agree with him, he is a vegetarian, of course he feels that way... it's like asking a creationist to say why he doesn't believe in evolution and using his views to justify not believing in evolution... Ethics is a very subjective thing, some people think that keeping pets is unethical...

It is of course a continuation of old traditions, in some places dogs are eaten, in some places cats or horses and I would not eat either unless I was really starving. Cows are stupid creatures, we have bred them to be so, just a look at what they were bred from will show how far they have come to be our "food beasts" and while pigs might still be smart an encounter with a wild boar will convince you really quickly that domestic pigs are lacking quite a bit compared to their wild brethren. The sad thing is that we have lost contact with the animals we eat, we no longer take care of them or even see them as animals, they are just packages of meat, this i agree with. Everyone should try to raise and eat your own meat, rabbits will do, once you see the emotional investment that goes into actually raising a food animal I think some people might tend to not be so quick to think of meat as just a package like carrots of broccoli. But i honestly don't see killing a food animal as unethical... mistreating it while it is alive i can see as unethical, i can't imagine not being moved by the killing of an animal...

Not having a penis is my first clue... This is true but more and more women are getting into a more visual medium... True, but since porn is shall we say, anonymous, who knows what who really looks at? I am rather fond of erotic literature, I write some of it as a matter of fact...

While I admit the possibility of what you say I'd like to see some examples of bat shit crazy liberals on mainstream TV...

Seriously? You continually equate farm animals and killing with suffering, are you aware that humans created these animals? They are not just wild animals that were taken from some idyllic life and forced into servitude. We bred them to be passive, to be easily killed and have limited awareness. I will be the first to admit that all animals deserve not to be horrifically treated but with out us they would not exist, in some ways we are more like parasites on them than predators. I can't see why you think that killing to eat is unethical, it suggests that we are somehow immoral for killing animals to eat, that somehow we are better than animals in some way or maybe it's superior I'm not sure but you have failed to show why this would be relevant. The argument that raising beef is ecologically unsound is easier to support than it being unethical.

Archaic reference to having too much fun to be allowed...

I have a story i wrote for a certain person that delves into that, a centauroid being, three sexes, two individuals, each individual is 2/3 one sex and 1/3 the other. each sex has either two penis's and one vagina or two vagina's and one penis.... Oh yeah fun fun fun til daddy takes the t-bird away....

This is not true, animals can be killed without torture and killing doesn't mean that torture is ok, again a strawman... Unnecessary suffering is point of view isn't it? So if I anesthetized the cow and killed it with no suffering it would be ok? Tastes like chiken... lol Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck it's a duck... so killing whales is ok? you confuse me, i think your argument against killing animals is simply your own personal agenda you want to impose on others.. sounds a bit like religion... Again with the suffering thing, to kill does not equate with suffering, or torture, or being unethical... I think this was dispelled in an earlier post in this thread, vegans need certain supplements in their diets because a lack of animals in their diet cannot be replaced by vegetables alone in any reasonable manner. Ok, again, if i put a cow to sleep so it can feel no pain or stress from the killing then it's ok? Shellfish do not feel pain? they avoid unpleasant stimuli, they respond to touch, I don't follow you on this. And why is ok to kill anything if it's unethical to kill then it's unethical to kill, insects are alive respond to stimuli and can eve be tamed to allow them selves to be handled, even wild ones. Crustaceans like shrimp respond to external stimuli, i seriously think this is an invalid way to look at the world. I am getting ready to go outside and beat the plant life around my house into submission, i am certain i will kill thousands of animals in the process, some will even be vertebrates, possibly even a mammal or two, maybe even a bird... WOW! good excuse to tell my wife when she asks why the yard looks like a empty over grown field, i bet it won't fly... This has real possibilities, honey, i didn't wash the dishes because i was afraid I'd kill something in the sink? yeah, she'll go for that I am sure of it, a few more beers and I'll be certain of it... Again, you do not understand animals or farming if you feel this way. Don't think for a moment those tame farm petting zoos are how animals are kept on a farm, farm animals can be dangerous, I was almost eaten several times by pigs as a child, cows are also quite dangerous if provoked, I've been drug into the hog pen, horned, trampled, bitten, chewed and chased many times, farming can be and is dangerous, animals are unpredictable and will defend themselves and what they perceive as their "space" then free range eggs are ok? your argument is not consistent, if killing is unethical then killing anything is unethical, microbes respond to unpleasant stimuli, intentionally torturing or killing something for pleasure is not the same as killing for food or for survival.

This guy answers your questions far better than I can and give a great break down of specific passages in the bible, those you suggest as well.

Life is the poetry of the universe.. Love is the poetry of life...

Mutations, among other things, produces variation in organisms, these variations when filtered by natural selection, sexual selection, and allele frequency produce organisms better suited for the environment and allows them to survive to pass their DNA to their offspring.

What? Protoplasm is the physical basis of life, it can't be produced? Please clarify this statement.. It is also off topic i think...

I think there can be little doubt that organic molecules on the earth came from space, in fact all organic molecules came from space... organic is just a molecule containing carbon, it has no special-ness apart from that...

A self replicating collection of chemicals that is separate from it's environment and capable of Darwinian evolution...

Do you know what a strawman argument is? What does this actually mean in relation to the OP? I have never advocated torturing anything, another strawman. I hope you don't smoke around these strawmen... So...only those who can choose can be ethical? At least we agree on that. Define suffering... When did i say i thought suffering was ok? I like to eat chicken but my feelings toward them is radically colored by being flogged incessantly as a small child by a rooster, kill em all I say... lol I know not a good argument.. I'm a nudist... I do bath and but I seldom perfume myself and i see no reason for others to do so unless they like they effect. naturalistic fallacy, wow, so you do know that you are continually using fallacies or do only those view points you disagree with count as fallacies? I disagree that eating meat is unnecessary, you'd have to show me how the human race could raise enough quality food that would not contain animals flesh of some sort. The way i see only a special few can do so and they base their behavior on falsehoods like killing animals is torture... Those are good reason to lower your meat intake but not a good reason to completely stop eating meat... and you keep talking about red meat, I eat mostly local seafood as meat but I realize not everyone has that option and not everyone eats huge chunks of meat with a few if any vegetables. But when i do eat red meat, like a steak, i like it almost raw, blood gushing from it, I am not ashamed of eating meat or my diet, you go from saying no meat to lowering your meat intake and where do you think that supplemental animal proteins comes from? You go from an either or argument to maybe just a little bit? Because animals do not make that distinction. And where do you draw the line at killing animals? Mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, arthropods, worms? Where is the line drawn? Oh yes they do, you obviously have little experience with farm animals... but this also extends into the wild as well, certain fish, birds and probably other animals a line themselves with predators to protect themselves by more or less performing a service that prevents the predator from eating more of them than they would loose if they were own their own in the wild. I see eggs as chicken fruit, eggs as commercially produced are not alive and do not have the capability of hatching... often this is true in farm raised birds as well but not generally I admit...

I have to admit I do know a lot of women who like and actively pursue pornography, I talk to them quite often on my fav pr0n site chat. I think much of it is that women have been historically pressured into suppressing their sexuality, the whole goofy notion of "good girls don't" has been quite effective in requiring women to hide their sexual feelings. This is changing, I think it's a good thing...

I think it should be pointed out that even though early bacteria like organisms did not reproduce in a way that we would call sexual they did indeed exchange DNA among themselves, in fact bacteria do this today, individual bacteria of the same species and even across what we call species lines.

While we only have a data point of one it is possible to assert that life forms very easily. The Earth had hardly cooled when we start to see the first signs of life. If signs of life begin to show up. Some estimates put is at just a few million years some think it was far faster. but it is demonstrable that life formed very quickly on the cooling earth. PAH's do form in space but to say that actual living organisms were formed in space is... somewhat less than reasonable, no working fluid is the most difficult thing to get around, extremely low temperatures is also a big problem. PAHs might been deposited on the earth and almost certainly were but not actual living organisms. Personally i sit in the metabolism first camp, i think it was a synergy of several different factors that allowed life to form. Hypercycles of organic chemicals exchanging chemical energy with in the earth and was probably a big factor but there are others. large organic molecules forming in certain types of clay probably has big impact as well, organic molecules being pounded aprt in surf zones into the tiny organic bubbles that resemble cells and their ability to take up other organic molecules and then break apart and grow again almost certainly contributed to the early stages of life...

We are "just beasts" if you think otherwise please tell us what separates humans from animals? Our "special status" is our own assertion made from our perspective it is a data point of one and therefor meaningless... That's exactly what we do, this idea that we are somehow superior to or different from animals is false. yes, from our perspective we seem to have the ability to choose but that is from our perspective. Then we go on and try to project our perspective on animals, yes we can look at baby animals and think oh how cute or look at an animal and think of how beautiful it is but when the rubber meets the road we are just an animal who thinks it's superior. Put you on an island where their is nothing to eat but animals and you will eat animals or do you think you'd have the moral fiber to allow your self to starve to death to avoid eating an animal? If you'd eat an animal to survive then you are a hypocrite, a cow would starve... You are projecting human morality onto animals and assuming they have no morals because we don't agree with their behavior. This is false, animals have moral behavior, lions do not kill other lions for food, in fact lions kill each other at a rate far lower than humans kill other humans... Wolves, those dastardly immoral beasts from the gates of hell... no they are animals acting on their own values, wolves do not kill and eat other wolves as food, they take care of their young, defend their mates and families. All social animals have what can be described as morals and some are close enough to our own that we can identify them as moral behavior. What we call morals is just our own social behavior. I see no reason not to eat other animals, i find the idea of how some animals are raised for food to be deplorable but to say that killing another animal for food is immoral or unethical is nonsense. I have to agree, I find such things to be deplorable, I was raised on a farm and we raised animals as food, the conditions weren't as good as animals would enjoy in the wild but then they didn't have to consistently worry about predators either. We never killed an animal in the presence of other animals, that was thought to be cruel but it had some practical reasons as well, animals get suspicious if they see you kill some of their own and become harder to handle... well except for chickens... they don't seem to care and will eat their own but that is another thing entirely. ( i readily admit to not liking chickens, every time i eat chicken i think, Hmmm revenge is sweet and so is chicken meat...) I do my best to insure that the animal products I eat are raised in a reasonable manner but to say that it's unethical for humans to kill to eat is a stretch past the point of breaking... Humans evolved due to pressures that sent our species in the direction of eating meat, our large brains resulted from both the increased food value of meat and the need for brain power to catch and eat other animals and avoid being caught and eaten while doing so. Our nearest relatives, chimps, eat meat as well. Is it better for an animal to be hunted in the wild and killed and eaten to be consistently under the stress of being hunted or is it best to be raised on a farm to be eventually eaten? You cannot say that it's wrong for a humans to eat meat, our digestive system shows that to be false, we evolved to eat meat but you do have a leg to stand on when it comes to food production but it will take far more than trying to shame people by telling them eating meat is wrong to change the system. BTW, i do know people who do not eat meat, I see no reason to show them as more or less moral or ethical than anyone else, some of them i wouldn't trust alone in the dark for sure... but hey they don't condone the killing animals so they should be morally superior.. horse feathers... BTW, we allowed our chickens free range and our ducks as well, they never tried to escape because they feared wild predators far more than they feared us... loved to eat duck eggs, which they would defend but they never left us for the freedom of being hunted by wild predators and if a predator did come round they flocked to us for protection. What a lovely quote...horse feathers, a total strawman argument...

Of course not Sergeant, god is making the calls, he just loves money and control of the population... or is it men that love that.. hard to tell the difference isn't it? Yup, if the religious right has their way that's exactly where we are headed... I disagree, think it's a cliff and we are teetering on the very edge of the precipice

I agree but not every one does... Do you think someone has the right to make you conform to their religious beliefs just because you work for them? Who is doing that? No you are not, in fact you will pay more or rather your employees will pay more if you exclude birth control. So you have no clue as to how insurance works and you have no problem with other forcing you to follow their religious beliefs? It's exactly the same thing. It could be, if you were one of the Muslim or Christian sects that believe such things.. Well established and widely accepted... So all we have to do is be well established and widely accepted? I can't believe you can't see what you are saying... doesn't tyranny of the majority mean anything to you? LMAO, Scientology comes to mind....Mormons, how far back to i need to go? Evidently not... You should not comment if you do not have a dog in the hunt but I am sure you do... You can't have freedom of religion with out freedom from religion... God doesn't demand I treat my fellow man badly.... but he does demand that of the religious, this so called controversy is evidence of this... The government of the US, the enlightenment, not being drawn and quartered because you don't believe the correct way possibly? Hitler was a Roman Catholic creationist, he was religiously motivated to protect the Aryan race from the Jews... Just another example of the hypocritical nature of religion...

Large objects in space do not orbit each other due to magnetic fields, ferrous or not. I did see a possible experiment that could be carried out in micro gravity that would allow a very light electrically charged object to orbit a wire with a DC current running through it but that is not how it would work for large objects like asteroids...