Moontanman

Yes, but why would you care?

Some pictures would be nice....

This sounds reasonable, I'd like to see some evidence for it. This too is sounds reasonable but I have doubts it's quite as simple as this....

How do you know he knew all along it would work?

Ok then, what happened to them? Where did they go?

I am trying to show that belief in a higher power has historically resulted in these things, not harming anyone is what you think but by simply asserting this to be a valid belief then others come and say their beliefs are just as valid and you cannot say they are not because you think everyone is entitled to their beliefs. In a perfect world i would tend to agree with you, if your beliefs do not hurt anyone then have at it no matter how weird they are but.... and I know it's the old slippery slope argument but once you allow for a creator that you define how can you justify keeping anyone else from defining their idea of creator? Who decides on who's creator is allowed? It's a five gallon bucket of poisonous biting worms.... and many people are willing to kill and be killed over their personal definition of creator...

And yet religion can be used to justify these behaviors, I have 12 underage wives because god says i can. I can have slaves because god says i can, I can just grab a woman who is not escorted by a male and have her as my own, as in I own her, I can take female children in battle and use them to please me, the list is long and crosses many belief systems. Not being a male generally means you are property to be done with as a male please, lovely idea, i think I'll go out and grab a few young virgins for my self.... You think they are crazy but what you think doesn't matter, it's what god thinks and they "know" what god thinks because the thoughts of god are actually their own.... So you would put restraints on what people believe, only those whose beliefs you approve of are deserving of respect?

Unless Jryan is a disingenuous troll who is only posting to sow discord i have to assume he is telling the truth as to his beliefs, we have crossed ideas on this before and he is a fan of the abrahamic mythos so he must accept those things as moral....

Ok, what the hell is going on here, what is wrong with cats in microwaves? God shows himself to me every time one explodes, the clean up is messy but the sight of god in the explosion is wonderful..... Seriously, all the religious really want is for us to respect their beliefs, what can possibly be wrong with that? sorting out which belief is the one that needs to be respected is easy, depends on which one the guy with the sword belongs too... iNow gave what some seem to think were frivolous beliefs but buried in those were some real beliefs that humans have held and religion was used to justify those beliefs. The idea that there is some power greater than humans is a nice hobby horse idea, hard to see why it is not a good idea except when you think of who is doing the believing, humans, greedy, self centered, humans, once you get the idea of some greater power someone automatically comes up with the idea of using this belief to get what they want out of other people. The extremes are easy to point out but those extremes resulted from the belief in a higher power, that belief in a higher power always results in people being used and abused by the people who law claim to know what that higher power wants. I know that most of you say "well my belief is different, it cannot result in such abuses of power" but it always does. Sometimes the abuses are minor and easily over looked but those abuses grow, the old adage power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely applies to religion absolutely. Once religion gains power over people the road to hell on earth is paved with the good intentions of the believers. That is why the creators of the USA tried to so hard to isolate the government from the religions of the day and the future. I can honestly say there is nothing that religion cannot be used to justify, if you doubt the veracity of my statement read a few holy books, Start with the Abrahamic and go on from there. Human beings need to own the concept they are responsible for their actions, there is no higher power directing our actions, we do what we do for reasons that reside within us. Every time i discuss this i keep coming back to all the theists that have asked me "if I don't believe in god what keeps me from raping and pillaging to my hearts content". My answer that those things to not reside in my heart or brain and i have no desire to do them whether there is a god or not usually just gets a blank look of non understanding. Why we exist. We exist due to evolution, genes compete with each other to reproduce. This struggle has resulted in various species of living things struggling to reproduce the most and live to reproduce again. We exist due to this struggle and as far as complex animals go we are the species that is winning the war, we have swept all other complex animal species before us. Now we are mopping up and deciding which ones we will allow to continue to exist. What is beyond the universe? What could be beyond everything? What is north of the north pole? This is a nonsensical question and as such not only can science not answer it neither can religion. Why was there a big bang? There was a big bang because it could happen, why are there stars, galaxies, planets? We know they are due to natural causes we have gained that knowledge through science, the answers God's or religion have given us have been shown to be false, why do you assume the answer to why the universe formed cannot be yet another natural process we are just unaware of, how is the answer goddidit any more satisfying for the universe than it was for stars, galaxies and planets? we have some theories as to why it could happen but so far they are hardly better than speculation for the most part. But I can easily ask "Why would there not have been a big bang?" One thing is for sure no matter why there was a big bang if it hadn't happened we would not be here to ask the question.

Well since I was replying to Jryan and not you i don't quite know how to answer this.

If you believe that then why bother to discuss this on a science forum, you certinly cannot show any evidence of miracles. But I can and have shown evidence of God being a psychopathic liar... yes you ignored all the murder and mayhem that was done by the will of that evil being you worship. Not true, i posted a link to a video that explains it in great detail, the bible says the Earth is a round disc covered by a crystal dome under the water of the deep. It was a miracle, god sucked the excess water up his ass....

Not all dinosaurs were large enough to be gigantotherms, in fact most were not that large and most were quite average and similar in size to mammals that occupy the same biological niches. Birds, which are dinosaurs, are warm blooded with out being gigantotherms. Oh and thanks for the neg rep, makes my day!

Trip, I doubt the existence of any historical figure would have been given any credence with as little evidence as there is for Christ, his place in the Christian religion assures this. One thing is for certain there is very little evidence for his historical existence and all of that dates from after he was dead and relies on second or third hand reports at best and none of them verify him being a deity.

From what I've read most sources indicate planets had already began to form by the time the sun started radiating more energy than it received from gravitational collapse.

Not true, there were Arctic dinosaurs as well as Antarctic dinosaurs and both polar regions were indeed cold even when dinosaurs lived there and Birds live there today and birds are dinosaurs... Most if not all dinosaurs are now thought to have been warm blooded. When you think dinosaur think "bird" Birds are dinosaurs and many dinosaurs had feathers.

This is thought to be true, huge insects and other large arthropods did indeed exist and the cause was to some extent a higher oxygen content of the atmosphere but this was well before there were any dinosaurs. by the time dinosaurs evolved the era of the giant insects was long past. This is debatable, much of the reign of the dinosaurs did see warmer world wide temps but winter at the poles was still cold and dark and dinosaurs did live at or near the poles. Why would less resources be available? I'm not sure I understand this answer. I'm not sure why this would be relevant, insects existed during the time of the dinosaurs yet the largest land animals that ever existed lived then. Dinosaurs laid eggs, often a great many eggs, so i don't see how this is relevant, Please elaborate. It would appear that the actual size and weight of Quetzalcoatlus is still in considerable dispute. The OP's link suggested a maximum size that is doubted by most now days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus

And what what would be the point of this statement other than to show you totally failed to read this thread not to mention you have no idea how babies are made???

So murder, rape, genocide, slavery, death penalty for homosexuals and adulterers is ok with you then? So you are saying that the same people argue both at the same time, can you confirm this is true?

Ethically it is a mine field for sure, such a being could as in the case of horses and donkeys result in a being superior to both mother and father...

Sounds like you equate cowardly with being a skeptic. How can you say that, did you know him personally? You are the very embodiment of the no true Scotsman fallacy. And then you have to be insulting....

Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion? Do you have anything to back up those assertions? Primitive circulatory systems of dinosaurs? Dinosaurs were similar to birds whose circulatory systems are at least the equal of mammals, some would say they are superior.

Yes they do give you a method to falsify their claims, they say if you believe hard enough pray for the revelation long and intensely enough and have faith god and or angels will appear to you, they speak in tongues and other interpret these tongues, they all claim it's as real as what you say. If he doesn't then is means you haven't believed hard enough. How is that different than your claims? That is because your argument is bogus, your claim is no better than any other theists claims, dedicate your life to god, believe and have faith and god will appear. How is that different? Drugs are not necessary to produce hallucinations, intense belief can cause them as well. None the less how is a bad weekend a sacrifice if you know that not only are you coming back but you will sit at the right hand of god, if that was true you could skin me alive with a rusty knife, it would have only been a sacrifice if he was truly and permanently dead.

The article http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/563mgsyh.asp?page=1 Yes, i agree, if this is accurate it would be a misrepresentation of how skin color evolved. There is no way to tell if this is true or not, it gives some anecdotal evidence and does not show the context it was in. Why does this bother you? Comparing science with folk lore to show how science is better at describing the natural world seems perfectly reasonable to me. This is most certainly true, if "The Holy Bible" was asserted as just a folk lore or a primitive attempt to explain thing the uproar would be immense. Incredibly petty, and I see no reason why the discoveries of minorities, long ignored in text books, shouldn't be accentuated. The entire context of this would have to be shown before we could make a definitive reply but again i see no reason why minority contributions shouldn't be accentuated, everyone knows who Einstein is and unless the section was discussing the theory of relativity why should he be glorified, why not minority contributors? Why is this wrong, why is showing that science isn't a WASP dominated field a bad thing? \ Religion is myth and superstition, no wait only the non christian ones are, i forgot and again why shouldn't women and minorites be encouraged to study science? Usually the content of these books is greatly influenced by the largest markets, like Texas who's school boards have been insisting on requiring Genesis be taught as science is a good example. I would have to agree this is bad but I would have to see some documentation this is true. Yes, and the censorship is highly influenced by religion, i live in NC, I listen to the debates all the time. Can you show how this is connected to false textbooks? yes, well except those Christian myths. And here finally is the point, a right wing conservative Christian with an agenda to show science is attacking Religion purposefully. this entire article is for no other purpose than selling books to people who are also right wing Christians. This artle and the "news" rag it is contained is has apolitical agenda, insert Creationism into the classroom, the "Weekly Standard" is about as accurate and unbiased as Fox News, possibly even less so. Here is a review of her book http://recursed.blogspot.com/2006/07/pamela-winnicks-science-envy.html Here is a review of her book by the "Discovery Institute" A right wing site that promotes the silliness of Intelligent Design and Creationism. Notice the difference between the two? If you are a creationist fine, lets discuss it but don't try to sneak in the lies, misrepresentations and out right fabrications of fundamentalist religions apologetic crusades. http://www.discovery.org/a/3511 Another article by Pamela Winnicks http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20001129creationism1.asp Care to support your assertions with evidence instead of Creation Science horse feathers and the disingenuous people who promote ID and Creationism?

This is true, help from religion always comes with proselytizing, in parts of Africa Missionary work also comes with teaching the people that homosexuals are after their children and should be killed, the missionaries support this meme and urge laws to be passed that give homosexuals the death sentence and the whole killing children who are supposed witches thing is also supported by evangelical missionaries. There is the false assertions that condoms cause aids coming from the Catholic church. The third world is hugfe market for the meme of religion and the people are gullible due to lack of education and poverty. For me the enormous amounts of untaxed church money that comes from believers and is used top buy multi-million dollar mansions for the preachers, the expensive cars and a life style that is almost beyond imagining is a huge problem. It's difficult to show why this money wouldn't be better spent on educating the poor at the very least. Religion, at least the american form of it, the evangelicals, charismatic, and other sects are really nothing indoctrination machines often directed at children. The sole purpose of these mega churches is to raise money to build more churches and recruiting more and more people to fill them so they can collect more many. many of these "churches" are more like malls and religion is what is being sold. Religion is a parasitic meme that is passed down from parent to child and it's sole purpose is to generate more money so it can generate more converts to generate more money and so on. like a computer virus for the computer that is the human mind.

Rational empirically verifyable reason to believe in theism? If you do then everyone who hears voices does too, what real knowledge have you obtained from this to pass on? This is a total fallacy, your evidence may well be an hallucination for all you know and can show, just knowing is not knowledge any more than faith is proof. I am sorry dude, but this is the same stuff being sold by religious snake oil salesmen the world over. More snake oil to add the already growing supply? You've shown no such knowledge only that by dedicating your life to belief and having faith you might be able to see something that could very well be an hallucination, this is no better than any other religion on the planet. What real knowledge dude, so far all you have done is make claims, churches all over the USA regularly are visited by angels and many people claim to be able to see then as they walk among the congregation and anyone who doesn't see them just don't have enough faith or doesn't believe hard enough. Your claim is no different and is no more intellectually honest than any other theistic supernatural claim..... Science may not be able to provide answers that satisfy you but there are answers to those questions, they just don't involve a god. Exodus 21:2-6 Leviticus 25: 39-46 Luke 12: 42-48 1Peter 2:18-21 Ephesians 6:5-9 1Timothy 6:1-2 Exodus 21: 7-11 Exodus 21: 20-21 Genesis 9:25