Moontanman

Another good one, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110705211022.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29, BTW, how do you explain there are no fossils of bunnies in the Cambrian era if everything was created all at once? There are no fossils of modern animals out of place in the fossil record, no apes, humans, horses, cows, or bunnies either in the Cretaceous, no out of place animals at all. Do you wonder why if everything was created at once why this is true? He was the one who asked for the trial part and it was deemed not legal to teach because it was dishonest, the Judge himself noted that ID was not supported by any evidence other than lies. He was not only a Federal Judge, appointed by George Bush, he was a conservative Christian Judge, the ID'ers were ecstatic at first when they found out he was the judge, they expected him to rule in their favor because he was a Conservative Christian appointed by George Bush, they are quoted as saying before the trial that this man knows who butters his bread, lucky for us and sadly for them he was also honest.

Actually if you go back far enough man evolved from bacteria, your lack of understanding of the evidence for evolution does not negate the evidence for evolution. BTW, the creatures that both we and modern monkeys evolved from would indeed, if we could go back in time and see them, be called monkeys by us. If the quite extensive fossil evidence doesn't provide evidence of evolution then what would it take to convince you evolution is real? A crocoduck? BTW, evolution and creationism have already been on legal trial and guess what, evolution won, hands down won and the Judge was a Conservative Christian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

One of my sons went to school for a couple of semesters in Germany and then went there as part of back packing across Europe, he said Germany was a very friendly place.

No, the evolution of the eye from a simple light sensitive cell to eyes better than human eyes can be seen in nature, this one at least is not a thought experiment. The theory of evolution has "evolved" so far past Darwin his name is used only because he first thought up the process of natural selection, it is no longer Darwin's theory and evoking his name to try and refute evolution is silly. How about you go pound sand... And this make him an expert on evolution why? Of course it did, comparing you to a lying charlatan made your day? Hmm .... So now you are questioning radiometric data? Does it make any sense to you that multiple radiometric methods agree with not only each other but with other methods based on other techniques? No of course not, all you need is one unusual data set and you assume all the rest are incorrect as well but I see nothing to suggest a 6,000 year old earth. While everyone lies creationists have to lie to support their assertion of created young earth, not only do they lie your friend does as well, and as I suspect you know he is spouting bullshit so the lie becomes yours. BTW, abiogenesis is not part of evolution, evolution only explains the diversity of life not how life started, get your facts lined up sparky. You are correct is wasn't all day, "science" class wasn't till after recess so it was the rest of the day, I apologize. The beating how ever was real, in the early 1960's in WV evolution didn't get much support but genisis was pretty much the absolute truth The flag only had 48 stars too, I guess they didn't believe in Alaska or Hawaii BTW, I was known as an very well behaved child, i just wasn't gullible or stupid enough to believe bible verses as science. . Now, I gave you neg rep for suggesting I was lying, of course I am sure it is easy to project your faults on me, and again so far your evidence is in sever doubt and easily refuted by simply reading other threads on sfn, until you come up with something new or not easily refuted i am done with this conversation, i see no reason for me to go back and repeat over and over the same stuff just to satisfy you because you are too lazy to read them, if you come up with something new I'll be glad to either applaud you or debate you BTW, are you aware of the Verdict in the trial of ID a few years ago? Yes an actual trial with a Conservative Christian Judge and he struck down ID as nothing but lies being used to support religion. Yes, a Conservative Christian Judge actually agreed after hearing days of testimony that ID was just lies being used to support religion and that ID had no factual support what so ever. And yes the ID people used all the same arguments and examples you are currently using, you have come up with nothing new.

I've never actually lived in a city environment as you describe, i have lived inside city limits but then deer and even alligators were less than 1/4 mile away and wild animals were common even in my yard, that is not the same as the concrete jungle you seem to want. Right now I live outside the city limits in a more suburban area, I would never choose to actually live in a city as you describe.

This is totally a strawman argument and belongs in the religious forum not chemistry. NS is not necessarily those things, often cooperation and and simply adapting to change is a big part of NS but I agree that a kind loving benevolent god would have thought of a different system but again as god is demonstrably not a benign loving God or at least the one portrayed in the bible is not then i see no reason to assert God is such a being. Also how is any death not cruel and unpleasant? I don't see anything in your assertion to assume that either Evolution by NS or even creation by a God is in any way kinder than any other system.

Thanks for answering jackson, i do admit to a bias but I shy away from the extreme of either side but it always seems the extremes are the ones who get the sound bites. It would be much easier for me to get closer to the right if they would get out of bed with the religious right but that seems unlikely any time soon. It seems a shame to me that our country is basically run by the extremes and moderates are ignored, possibly their sound bites are not exciting enough.

jackson33 you seem to have a pretty good, if biased, grip on politics, it bothers me quite a bit i do not seem to have the ability to wrap my mind around the complexity of what is really going on. Can you step outside the bias of your views and help me understand? To me the more I know the less difference there seems to actually be between the different parties. To me it seems to have disintegrated into child like squabbling over sound bites as well. It is very frustrating to hear so many things asserted as truth that are self contradictory, it has almost fallen to the level of religion in my perception so a great degree. many politicians on both sides appear to actually be stupid, often claiming things that are either lies or totally misrepresenting reality in some profound manner but still asserting it like their belief in reality is somehow more significant than the actual reality of the situation and people just suck it up like air. It seems to be a two large groups of people who claim to support the population but claim the other side is biased against the population, it's very frustrating, is my perception closer to the truth or is it more of one side is correct and the other wrong depending on if you are rich or poor or some other perceptual bias?

Are animals considered conscious? I am quite certain that many are, even fish, and my experiences with octopus would indicate they are self aware as well. I'm not sure after reading all these posts I completely understand what consciousness is.

Tony, you beat me to the punch, i wanted to say we already have those, they are called wedding chapels here in NC, many strip malls have them, and Elvis is often operating them in some way, he can be you best man,

All the early memories i have are of flashes of or pictures, they are not like the memories I have now but they have been confirmed by people who were there except for the breast feeding part but some inquiries did show that a relative who had recently lost a new born was allowed to baby sit me when i was an infant, it would be rather rash to say she had attempted to breast feed me due to a reality disconnect as a result of her loss but it would seem reasonable, she took care of me for an entire summer during the day. real memories of things that i can actually remember in a fashion similar to the way my memories are now start at around 3 or so all before that age are more like flashes of vision with little or no real connection with any other reality. The earliest memory I have that is more like my adult memories was of being told by my grandfather to go over the hill and get some eggs from a duck that was sitting on a nest (my grandparents raised ducks for their feathers and eggs) The duck was huge in my memory and it proceeded to flog me severely and i tumbled on down the hill and cried as I climbed back up the hill, i was a little over three at the time, maybe 3 years + 4 months or so I remember my grandfather holding me and laughing so hard he cried because of the way i tumbled down the hill, he then when down and grabbed the duck off the nest and let me pick up the eggs and carry them back up the hill, I dropped several them and they broke. Anything before that are just flashes of mental pictures, once of seeing a stingray caught on a pier in Florida and the house we lived in when we lived in Florida and getting fish bone stuck in my foot, this happened when I was 2. I also have some flashes of my grandfather's house in WV but since I lived there until i was 6 or so those may not be very early memories. One more memory, when I was a toddler, barely able to walk, I remember playing in the yard, sitting on the ground and screaming as a huge bird flew over me, i fell back and hit my head, the bird seems to fill the sky in my memory, the memory is like a short gif in my mind. The bird I found out years later was a buzzard and my uncle who was about nine or ten came out when he heard my scream and grabbed me up.

An interesting display, i look forward to seeing more of this.

I and many others have answered this creationist bull shit over and over on this site, it gets old to answer those bat shit crazy questions over and over, i see no reason i should break down the site of some dishonest creationist trying to sell a book bit by bit just to satisfy you. the answers you claim to seek are all over this site in many threads about these same dishonest assertions. I suspect no answer I can give will satisfy you, you will just move the goal posts as answers come through as you have already began to demonstrate, it has already been demonstrated how the flagellum could have evolved and still be irreducibly complex as you call it. You cannot go backward and show that something cannot work by removing parts at random because the thing did not evolve at random so why should taking it apart at random have any meaning to how it was produced? The evolution of the flagellum is quite demonstrable as it the eye, the immune system, and your big brain, in fact it can be shown that the human body is IC but that is a false analogy because the human body didn't just pop into existence whole, complex organisms evolved over vast periods of time in small reasonably logical steps. It's all already here go read some of it and if you find a point hard to swallow let me know and I'll do my best to make it easier to understand but this crap of gliding in like you are the first creationist to come here and slowing working your way through all the same crap we have seen dozens if not hundreds of time is a bore. And if you do come up with something that cannot be explained I will applaud you for at least being unique but don't assume I am in awe of your intellect just because you can obfuscate the issue to so well you cause me to loose interest. BTW, the appearance of design does not prove design, there are many crystals that are very complex but do not prove any design or designer. personally i think you should have to prove who the designer is before even suggesting a designer but that is just me and not this site. I always look suspiciously on anyone who is asserting an agenda of denial and selling a book. Does this guy have any peer reviewed papers? No. Does he publish anywhere but his $12.95 book? No. Are you in any way associated with this guy? Can you give examples of any peer reviewed papers that assert a designer? Or IC in the way you are asserting it? I'll ask you directly, are you the one selling this book, are you Dr. Pitman or making money off his book? Have you even read any of the many threads on this subject in this forum? Come on guy give me something i can work with besides a MD pretendign to be a scientist, here is a good one by Dr. Pitman http://dancingfromgenesis.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/detecting-design-by-sean-d-pitman-md-shows-compelling-noahs-flood-evidence-and-reasons-to-doubt-darwins-scheme/ WOW! What a surprise he is asserting Noah's ark was real and a world wide flood happened, lets see what else Dr. Pitman asserts He is an Young Earth Creationist, this means by definition he is dishonest because YEC cannot be supported by anything but lies, they are by definition dishonest, you my friend are either deceived and one of the sheep or one of the dishonest shepards. Fell free to mentally masturbate all you want here but I am not into that. BTW, i figured Noah's ark had to be a myth when I was 8 years old, i asked my "public school teacher" yes I said public school teacher where all the water went when the flood dried up and she couldn't answer me with anything other than it dried up, even then i knew that that much water could not hang in the air as vapor, subsequent questions were answered with increasingly less likely answers until i was made to stand in the corner until i admitted the veracity of Noah's flood, I stood in the corner all day and received a spanking that evening, no actually it was a beating, but I never gave in then and I will not give in now, creationism is a lie perpetrated by small minded people who cannot or will not admit that their concept of God cannot be real if they insist the bible equals truth. Another good one by Dr. Pitman, http://naturalselection.0catch.com/Files/humaneye.html

I can seriously deny it would be a better place, it sounds like hell on earth to me but then I grew up in a very rural area, not in a city but even the people I know that did grow up in a city still like the "great outdoors" possibly humans who grow up in a an enclosed environment would feel the way you do? I have to ask, why do you dislike the wild so much?

Another returned to life thread for sure but I can remember things from about the age of two or so for sure, possibly some other flashes that occurred earlier, I remember being breast fed at least once although my mom says she didn't breast feed which is rather disturbing. i agree that those memories are more of flashes than the type of memories I have now.

I cannot understand how anyone would want to get rid of nature and substitute the maximum number of humans possible even if it was feasible to do so. I love to hike in the wild, camp, and just take in wild areas, it is good for the mind to see nature at it's finest. I like to imagine orbiting habitats but in my wildest dreams I never leave out a huge area of what would appear to be a very diverse natural section in the habitat, in my imagination this section would have to be much larger than the space occupied by humans. A wild and diverse nature is part of who we are, to deny this denies our humanity, we are not separate from nature we are part of it. I hope humans never get to the point that they can do with out nature, to live your entire life in an artificial habitat with nothing but humans would be my idea of hell.

So, singing is what they call that now days?

Thanks for the link Monster from the ID, lots of misrepresentations, fabrications and out right lies there but that is par for the course from creationist supporter. Now i know who you are and what you are, my conscious will not bother me if i don't get caught up in this debate because like all creationists i doubt you are looking for knowledge, more likely you are looking to ask a question that cannot be answered so I'll give you one, who created God? So far all you have done is obfuscate the issue with straw men and meaningless analogies, your island analogy fails due to the nature of the premise of isolated islands, no organism or chemical in solution is isolated, the very nature of biology is that organisms interact with each other, they mate, pass on genes with inherited variation. For your analogy to work the islands would have to be able to reproduce and come into contact with each, I also thing that virus's have a big role to play in life's very early evolution but that is another line of reasoning. If you continue to obfuscate the discussion by invoking things like ID and using links that suggest not only a total misunderstanding of evolution and spread out right lies I see no reason to take you seriously. From your link: This quote is a classic, a number of scientists are openly questioning the sacred status of evolution, quite the misrepresentation there isn't it? The insinuation that evolution is sacred in some way? Or that scientists are divided in some significant way on the theory of evolution? Are you gonna tell us it's just a theory next? Ahh the smell can't you smell that smell? The link you provided is a creationist link to a guy with a medical degree not a science degree and he is using his MD to try and sell his male bovine excrement (for $12.95) and that is worse than sad, it's wrong, and he is wrong or more accurately lying.

The idea that evolution is something like wondering through a maze is totally off base, if you must use that analogy then it should be a group of people who explore the maze over many generations and tell each succeeding generation about the false turns so they won't make the same mistakes, reproduction with inherited variation is not like one individual doing anything. I read 800 words a minute give some links to read so I at least know where the stuff you are saying is coming from... right now it seems to be coming from your rectum....

Being eaten by salt water crocs would seem to be a bit of a minus I could walk less than a mile and see some wild alligators but they almost never bother humans but don't salt water crocs infest large areas of salt water swamps? I would miss fishing and not having to worry about being eaten... Oh yeah, they don't allow the importation of many aquarium fish either and I would miss that I remember seeing a movie a long time ago about a group of people in Australia who lived in a rather large crater or something like that and they made their living shooting kangaroos and turning them into dog food, i can't remember the name, good movie. I like beer...

It's also quite true that humans carry around more bacterial cells than human cells by quite a large factor, you are more bacteria than human Almost all if not all animals require quite a large number of comensual bacteria to survive, even some intestinal parasites have positive effects, worms that are parasitical in the human gut give us some protection from allergies, people who do not have them are far more likely to suffer from sever allergies than people who do not. Is it just me or does google Chrome spell checker suck whale shit from the bottom of the ocean? This is called the rare Earth theory and to me it would indicate that every species is all the more precious due to the idea that say wolves are only found one place in the entire universe, here and to kill them off or any other complex life form is to destroy something that is irreplaceable in any way much less directly. I often wonder if they will be able to recreate things like woolly mammoths or woolly rhinos and if they do what would they do with them? Stick them in a zoo and let people gawk at them? It seems to be fundamentally flawed idea in many respects. I am a member of an organization that would not support the "rewilding" of America for many reasons but disease and parasites is probably at the top of the list most of the scientists and researchers I know. The main reason things like wolves are extinct in most highly populated areas has little to with them being dangerous to humans more about us competition for the same food supply which is far less true now than when the wolves were common. In WV where I am from coyotes have been "reintroduced" into the mountains to cure the over population of deer but domestic pets are far easier prey and are suffering badly and the deer continue to prosper. It is rumored that Rattle snakes are being dropped from hellecopters too but that is yet another conspiricy theory I'm not sure how many species it would take but it would take lots of time, probably hundreds of thousands of years if not millions to prepare a lifeless planet to be habitable by any complex life forms like those on the earth and what it would take is lots of bacteria of many greatly diverse forms to even provide oxygen and clear out the noxious chemicals of a lifeless world, being habitable requires a hugely complex ecosystem of just bacteria, complex life is the thinnest top layer of tremendous depth of life on earth.

So far all you have done is give inappropriate denials from the stance of you simply denying it can happen, the idea that the flagellum is useless if you knock out a protein at random is not evidence of IC, the flagellum was built from simplicity to complexity, obviously if you eliminate part of the flagellum it will not operate, or depending on what part not operate as efficiently, but it is easy to see from the video how it evolved, evolution is not randomly trying solutions, that is a straw man argument. It has nothing to do with randomly trying solutions to a problem as you would in making your way through a maze. As I said before give us some evidence, not claims made from a river in Egypt. And yes IC is intimately connected with ID, you claiming it is not is the river in Egypt again. Show me evidence that something cannot evolve because it is too complex, not that something is so complex that if one part is randomly taken away it will not function that is not how evolution works, i suggest you do a little bit of research into evolution somewhere besides Conservative-pedia or what ever that pack of lies and misrepresentations is called. So far I am not impressed by your models and I am very disappointed you have provided no evidence other than your disbelief... BTW... Yes it is a reason to start sounding negative early on, what you are doing is trying to obfuscate the issue by simply dancing all around it but not addressing it, there is no need to soften us all up by a lengthy introduction, get to the point, most of us are very familiar with all the concepts you seem to be intent on explaining to us as though we are grade school children. Lets see some direct evidence of IC, it would be nice to see how you can separate out IC from ID but I fear that would only be an excuse for you to further delay the discussion by obfuscation again.

Marat, do you have a link to the source of this, i am interested in knowing more.

I don't know where you live but in the USA, especially the south it's called the culture wars and the creationists are gaining ground every day, mega churches dot the landscape and religion is slowly but surely being inserted into everything. They want the country to be a Christian country with Christian values and science and rational thought are being discouraged. i am loosing friends because I will not mindlessly go along. It is very scary looking out from the inside of this movement.