Moontanman

So until we are all crowded into .027 acres all over the earth we are not over populated? No room is needed to grow crops? No room for anything but people, rats, and cock roaches? there is much of the earth that is not suitable for humans. when i was young the earth had 3.5 billion people, now it has close to twice that many people, i can feel the crowding, can't you? I used to ride motorcycles through the mountains of WV, now those empty places are all houses and paved roads. There is no myth of over crowding only the myth that humans need to multiply and cover the earth for gods glory. The earth is over crowded, yes if we stood shoulder to shoulder we could have many more people but feeding and clothing them would be impossible. feeding and clothing the worlds people is difficult even now and most humans live in squalor. If we all lived in squalor we could accommodate maybe twice as many as we have now but why let it come to that? Why not start trimming down the population now with birth control? Even if we managed to freeze our population at 7 billion we would still be straining to provide everyone with a decent life. Only science and technology allow the population we now have, with only god to rely on we would still be sitting in caves and shitting over the edge... I live in a 1100 square foot home, it would be a living hell to be limited to only 1100 square feet....

No, I know this because it is demonstrably true, the religious view that God will provide is demonstrably false. God never provides anything of material value to anyone, religion provides for a fortunate few, every one else just gets lip service and promises. So planning ahead is bad and just letting things go to shit is good? Limiting growth might (in some other universe where cause and effect have no meaning... maybe) have the results you say but over population will for sure. But not limiting population will result in that pattern as sure as the earth turns and revolves around the sun, but then the church was at one time convinced that the word of god said it didn't. the word of god has been proved false so many times i cannot give your scenario credence. Religion may not be a threat to humanity but believing it over reality is for sure. So having sex with someone, even though both want it and enjoy it is treating them like a curse unless you marry them? Sex with birth control has no consequences, doesn't that solve the problem?

I am curious, why is the exact method of abiogeneisis so important? We have more than enough data to show that Divine intervention is not required and we know that extant complex life is indeed derived from one type of single celled life form called a Eukaryote. Does it really matter if the remaining two basic life forms were formed from the merger of several other life forms or that they were derived completely independent of each other? The idea that the "tree" of life has a complex root system that had many different single celled life forms sharing DNA has been long suspected. Current single celled life forms also share DNA big time, often resulting in life forms that are not closely related acquiring DNA from each other is an established fact. But the fact remains that all complex life forms including humans share a common ancestor in eukarotes...

They have a word for people who practice the rhythm method of birth control, Parents but controlling your families size so you might be able to realistically provide for them is wrong but having children you cannot take care of is good? I have often wondered how a child being born into a horrific life is better than birth control. It seems to me that God is somewhat less than able to plan. The idea that urging birth control would be saying that birth is not good is stretching a point far past it's breaking point. Keeping the population at a more reasonable level and allowing people to plan their families seems more god like to me. A healthy family able to take care of it's children seems to be an important part of a healthy society. Thanks for the explanation, i think it just shows how religion controls people but i do appreciate the explanation. We know there limits to the carrying capacity of the earth, birth control is the only way we will survive. If for no other reason i would say that religion is a threat to the very survival of humanity. The idea that having sex outside of marriage is bad due to unwanted children but that birth control is also bad because it prevent pregnancy contradictory.

So the idea is that sex is gods gift and that gives god the right to control this basic human experience? I understand what you are saying but I was hoping for something a little more profound, i didn't think it would be such a straight forward case of controlling the people at such a basic level. In many cases the fundamentalist type churches seem to be going back that direction. One thing is for sure, the idea that birth control is wrong for young people in particular is certainly wide spread. The concept of abstinence only shows that nicely.

Yeah, I can see how some of this might make some bible thumpers blush and break out in a sweat. But most of it is quite tame. A lot of beating around the bush to say i want your body but still... Song of Solomon Chapter 1 1.The song of songs, which is Solomon's. 2.Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine. 3.Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee. 4.Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee. 5.I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon. 6.Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept. 7.Tell me, O thou whom my soul loveth, where thou feedest, where thou makest thy flock to rest at noon: for why should I be as one that turneth aside by the flocks of thy companions? 8.If thou know not, O thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents. 9.I have compared thee, O my love, to a company of horses in Pharaoh's chariots. 10.Thy cheeks are comely with rows of jewels, thy neck with chains of gold. 11.We will make thee borders of gold with studs of silver. 12.While the king sitteth at his table, my spikenard sendeth forth the smell thereof. 13.A bundle of myrrh is my well-beloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts. 14.My beloved is unto me as a cluster of camphire in the vineyards of Engedi. 15.Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes. 16.Behold, thou art fair, my beloved, yea, pleasant: also our bed is green. 17.The beams of our house are cedar, and our rafters of fir. Chapter 2 1.I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys. 2.As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters. 3.As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste. 4.He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love. 5.Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples: for I am sick of love. 6.His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me. 7.I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please. 8.The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. 9.My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice. 10.My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. 11.For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; 12.The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; 13.The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. 14.O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely. 15.Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes. 16.My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies. 17.Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether. Chapter 3 1.By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not. 2.I will rise now, and go about the city in the streets, and in the broad ways I will seek him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not. 3.The watchmen that go about the city found me: to whom I said, Saw ye him whom my soul loveth? 4.It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him, and would not let him go, until I had brought him into my mother's house, and into the chamber of her that conceived me. 5.I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please. 6.Who is this that cometh out of the wilderness like pillars of smoke, perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, with all powders of the merchant? 7.Behold his bed, which is Solomon's; threescore valiant men are about it, of the valiant of Israel. 8.They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. 9.King Solomon made himself a chariot of the wood of Lebanon. 10.He made the pillars thereof of silver, the bottom thereof of gold, the covering of it of purple, the midst thereof being paved with love, for the daughters of Jerusalem. 11.Go forth, O ye daughters of Zion, and behold king Solomon with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart. Chapter 4 1.Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead. 2.Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them. 3.Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks. 4.Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men. 5.Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies. 6.Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense. 7.Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee. 8.Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon: look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir and Hermon, from the lions' dens, from the mountains of the leopards. 9.Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck. 10.How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices! 11.Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon. 12.A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed. 13.Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard, 14.Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices: 15.A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon. 16.Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits. Chapter 5 1.I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved. 2.I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. 3.I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? 4.My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. 5.I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock. 6.I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer. 7.The watchmen that went about the city found me, they smote me, they wounded me; the keepers of the walls took away my veil from me. 8.I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love. 9.What is thy beloved more than another beloved, O thou fairest among women? what is thy beloved more than another beloved, that thou dost so charge us? 10.My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand. 11.His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven. 12.His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. 13.His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh. 14.His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl: his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires. 15.His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars. 16.His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. Chapter 6 1.Whither is thy beloved gone, O thou fairest among women? whither is thy beloved turned aside? that we may seek him with thee. 2.My beloved is gone down into his garden, to the beds of spices, to feed in the gardens, and to gather lilies. 3.I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lilies. 4.Thou art beautiful, O my love, as Tirzah, comely as Jerusalem, terrible as an army with banners. 5.Turn away thine eyes from me, for they have overcome me: thy hair is as a flock of goats that appear from Gilead. 6.Thy teeth are as a flock of sheep which go up from the washing, whereof every one beareth twins, and there is not one barren among them. 7.As a piece of a pomegranate are thy temples within thy locks. 8.There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number. 9.My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her. 10.Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? 11.I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished and the pomegranates budded. 12.Or ever I was aware, my soul made me like the chariots of Amminadib. 13.Return, return, O Shulamite; return, return, that we may look upon thee. What will ye see in the Shulamite? As it were the company of two armies. Chapter 7 1.How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman. 2.Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies. 3.Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins. 4.Thy neck is as a tower of ivory; thine eyes like the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bathrabbim: thy nose is as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus. 5.Thine head upon thee is like Carmel, and the hair of thine head like purple; the king is held in the galleries. 6.How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights! 7.This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. 8.I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; 9.And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak. 10.I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me. 11.Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field; let us lodge in the villages. 12.Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish, whether the tender grape appear, and the pomegranates bud forth: there will I give thee my loves. 13.The mandrakes give a smell, and at our gates are all manner of pleasant fruits, new and old, which I have laid up for thee, O my beloved. Chapter 8 1.O that thou wert as my brother, that sucked the breasts of my mother! when I should find thee without, I would kiss thee; yea, I should not be despised. 2.I would lead thee, and bring thee into my mother's house, who would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate. 3.His left hand should be under my head, and his right hand should embrace me. 4.I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, until he please. 5.Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved? I raised thee up under the apple tree: there thy mother brought thee forth: there she brought thee forth that bare thee. 6.Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. 7.Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned. 8.We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for? 9.If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver: and if she be a door, we will inclose her with boards of cedar. 10.I am a wall, and my breasts like towers: then was I in his eyes as one that found favour. 11.Solomon had a vineyard at Baalhamon; he let out the vineyard unto keepers; every one for the fruit thereof was to bring a thousand pieces of silver. 12.My vineyard, which is mine, is before me: thou, O Solomon, must have a thousand, and those that keep the fruit thereof two hundred. 13.Thou that dwellest in the gardens, the companions hearken to thy voice: cause me to hear it. 14.Make haste, my beloved, and be thou like to a roe or to a young hart upon the mountains of spices. So if biblical writing suggest something you are uncomfortable about it's because you are interpreting it wrong? That's nothing but hilarious... but typical of religion...

No one is disputing that the add 45 years ago was Fudish, what I am saying is that i get a constant bombardment of FUDs on-line and all of them are from the conservatives. I am quite sure the left will use that tactic when they can but liberals do not respond as well to FUD as conservatives do. Conservatives use FUDs to confirm their world view. If we were to use the next year posting the FUDs we get on-line i am confident conservative FUD messages would be overwhelming compared to any liberal FUD messages. FUD is not the way intelligent moral people present their views or receive information.

That's interesting, how did the Church make money this way?

Why does the catholic church consider birth control to be a sin even with married couples? This policy not only results in unwanted children that cannot be cared for and are a burden on society it also results in Aids being spread due to the anti condom fetish of the church.

I agree, here is mine, "Uh oh, do farts have lumps?"

I think it should be pointed out that most of the problems of the "conflicted girl" are due to religion, quite specifically in this case Religion of the male dominated controlling monotheistic type. The conflicted young girl is conflicted due to religion telling her things that conflict with the feelings inside her. You can't have sex, that's the basic message, but her desire for sex is quite high, the pressure on her to have sex from boys is quite high, her very biological being screams for sex. So to full fill this biological imperative and serve God she gets married early and has babies like door steps most of her life. (no masterbation either BTW.) Or she can, as most eventually do because the conflicted girl is indeed an intelligent human being, use birth control! yes, modern science has solved the dilemma of unsafe sex! She can hump to her hearts content until she decides to have a baby! Religion cannot deal with this of course so birth control is immoral as immoral as the pregnancy in the unmarried girl and the abortion she needs to have to get her lives potential back. But in the eyes of God her main job is having those babies. Even in married couples, no birth control, only abstinence and pregnancy are the allowed possibilities. BTW marriage without birth control would be a very special type of hell to me B) I think it's relevant that the people who are against abortion are also against birth control, i think this is because in the over all world view of religion females are basically less human than males. keep em bare foot and pregnant, that's what they are for. Birth control gives sexual freedom and what freedom is more basic than sexual freedom? Religion opposes freedoms, especially sexual freedoms. I think life begins when you reject religious control of your self, if not for the twisted religious moral views abortion would be a rare thing, taken care of quickly and early but most unwanted pregnancies could be avoided before when life begins becomes a problem.

So what constitutes murder is entirely subjective and any Moral code that prohibits murder is simply the morals of that society and have nothing to do with a God given moral? So if society can adjust it's morals to allow murder then why not abortion? BTW, no murder is not always a moral problem in all societies, even your Catholic inspired world view is full of justifiable murders. There is no god giving morals, all morals are part of what a society considers moral at any one time. Your Religion simply hijacks the morals of the society and does it best to control that society through control of morals. Religion is nothing but a means of control by power hungry individuals and seems to be particularly interested in the control of the reproductive systems of the people under their control. No birth control allowed, all sex acts must be able to produce children and all children must be born. It would be much easier for me to get behind the notion of restricting abortions if birth control as touted as a good idea when people have sex but no your church cannot allow sex with birth control. That seems totally disingenuous to me. Then of course there is the idea of whose god to follow, Jesus, Yahweh, Allah, Gaea, Monotheistic, Pantheistic, it's very confusing and no way to really tell which on is the real one or even if there are many. Whose God's Morals do we follow? Who decides? In exactly what context are you using the word practical? The above quote makes no sense... Can you back up this outrageous assertion with anything other than your own self serving religious views? Not to mention the new myths and legends like catholicism and all other monotheistic religions. For you maybe but why is not believing your way the rejection of all truths? How can it reduce life to nothing but a series of sensual experiences? And how does embracing these "truths" change the fact that when you're dead you're dead and 50 years from now only the famous will be remembered at all and the faceless throngs will not be remembered no matter who's truths they embraced. Bullshit, but if so who's god? But God does nothing better than hiding the truth from us hence the discrepancies between the bible and reality. You are welcome to believe what ever you want as long as you don't require me to follow your truth but then that what the catholic church is all about isn't it? Making others follow your truth by means of control and fear???

I would have to say that is probably true 99% of the time anyway.

I got this from google, it appears it hasn't ever been used outside of medical facilities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_breathing

It's relevant because we are talking about what a human life is, is this creature, a clone, a human being? Is it a human being if it is specifically grown with no brain? other animals have been cloned, i see no reason humans could not be cloned. But there is an even more artificial way to make a life from, make up the genes from stock chemicals that were not already alive and place them in a cell and have it go on about it's business like nothing had happened. Eventually it will be possible to do this with complex animals and of course humans are animals... So would this totally artificial being be human? Some people think it's a life from the time of conception and i am cool with what ever the other guy wants to believe as long as he doesn't make me follow his beliefs. But what if there is no conception? all human cells have the potential to be humans. does this make very cell precious? Or does it show that a cells potential is not fixed, all fertilized eggs do not go on to produce a fetus, when does it become a human being? and what makes it a human being? I think it's human being when the brain becomes active and when that activity ceases it ceases to be human.

Well, as a matter of fact there are people do think so, but not everyone acknowledges the same creator. As I said there are no human actions that have not been justified by morality usually by one religion or another. There are some religions even older than the Christian one and yes they are still around, true and lasting? What do you mean by this? The religion that was SOB enough to kill anyone who disagreed with them, the religion that destroyed civilization after civilization? Even to go so far and destroy the cultures by destroying all the records and forcing them to speak another language? Which religion would this be? Actually i do believe that Murder and Rape are Immoral but there are as you know always exceptions, most religious texts are full of these exceptions, I think that's very telling.

Ok, that is at least a definition with no sliding scale but, let's say i harvested a cell from your body, skin will do, then I grew that cell into a culture and took one of the cultured cells and grew a new human being, lets say an artificial womb (it will happen) would this body be a human being? What if you grew it with no brain, could it just be harvested for organs or would it be a human with all the rights and privileges everyone with brains does? What makes us human, our conscious brain or our shape?

Which God? Which Gods morals? Funny how these "handed down morals" seem to conform to the societal norms of the times isn't it? I believe it's demonstrable fact, 100 years ago the morals of society were different than today, 500 years ago they are even more different, 1000 years ago, 3000 years ago, 10,000 years ago? The so called "Handed Down Morals" are nothing but a reflection of the morality of the times. There is not one human activity that has not been Moral at one time or another, these morals are always supposed to be handed down or up or what ever by superior beings of some kind and even rape and murder has been morally supported by one religion of another... I think that humans who are in good mental health have an instinctive feel for right and wrong, of course there are people who do not, they are called psychopaths.

Wouldn't infinite speed require being in touch with every point in the entire universe all at once?

So... you are a pragmatist then? Morals are fixed? By who? Who's morals do we go by? Our own? Isn't that a bit self serving? Humans had civilized communities and moral values long before even the idea of monotheism much less your idea of it. Even in the bible the morality is the religion mirrored the morals of the time not the other way around. Intrinsic to what? I doubt you could get three people to gether at random and have any two of them agree on what is moral in many areas and the smaller the areas become the more different their moral values can vary. Our morals are similar to pack or troop behavior in other animals, just more complex and often quite self serving to the people who want power.

Needimprovement, while I am not a big fan of abortion, being a parent makes the idea of an abortion particularly difficult to justify... most of the time... However I have to say that the objection to abortion on moral grounds seems kinda weak coming from people who think birth control is also immoral...

Yes and then there is all that misdirection and.... that river in Egypt... Seriously, can anyone equate an add from 45 years ago with the constant bombardment of nearly every communication medium with about as many different FUDs as you can imagine now days? But I have to say, it';s as disgusting from one side as the other. When ever i hear a FUD about a subject I generally tend to be sympathetic to the group who is a victim of the FUD.

Larry Niven wrote about human life in zero G in his novel The Integral Trees Humans living in a smoke ring around a neutron star. He describes in detail what it would look like to see the magnetic effects of the neutron star close up. (The steam powered rockets the humans made were cool, I think that was in the second book)

I live near the ocean, I see examples of this all the time. A stiff off shore wind can result in tides that are a few feet below normal or with an onshore wind few feet higher than normal. Most of the time we only notice the extra high water since it comes up in road ways and houses but it does happen both ways...