Moontanman

I know there is a theoretical minimum possible temperature but is there a theoretical maximum possible temperature as well?

ok http://science.howstuffworks.com/alaska-ufo.htm BTW, the stuff i took the time to put in my last post was not generalizations, much of it was quite specific. http://science.howstuffworks.com/senator-russell-ufo.htm Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedThis site BTW, makes several claims in the first page that are totally lies or at best misdirections of the truth. This link is nothing but ridicule 101 http://www.skepdic.com/ufos_ets.html This is simply a lie. Condon's report has been almost universally shown to be nothing but a grand show of starting out with a preconceived notion and doing everything possible to prove it while ignoring all evidence to the contrary This makes the grand assumption that aliens either have to do what we think they can the way we say they must or it totally ignores the possibility of slow boat type aliens. His assumption is easy to sweep away and has long been shown to be simply an unreasonable objection.

Oh but that is exactly what i am saying, the only people who have really investigated UFOs was the military and they did not investigate, all they did was debunk. they looked for anything they could remotely blame any UFO sighting on, the evidence didn't matter to them. Even then there were sightings they couldn't possibly blame on Venus or hoaxed photos these were covered up and never investigated by anyone. only the freedom of information act ever disclosed these sightings they were not scientifically investigated either. http://science.howstuffworks.com/ufo-government.htm The reality is the situation is that UFOs were not investigated and often off the cuff remarks with no basis in any kind of investigation were used to discount the wittinesses. this is just one of many such dismissals by the government. yes, they do run like they are poison, nothing can sink a scientists career faster than investigating UFOs. the ridicule started by the military to try and make any one connected with UFOs look stupid has taken on a life of it's own. Same link as above. Bold text is my doing. I could literally write yet another book about how the government lied and covered up UFO evidence and ridiculed those who didn't go with the flow. People lost their jobs for insisting on the truth over the official slant on the subject.

My name is an old nickname I got from being caught laying out in the full moon on the beach naked in the winter time by some friends. (Yes alcohol was involved) They asked me what I was doing and I answered getting a moon tan, Moontanman seemed to stick.

This is true, but that argument didn't keep people from testing the assertions of gods existence when the idea of "what else could it be" was used. No in fact they went on and showed many other things it could have been. On the subject of UFOs were stuck in an argument of ignorance, they only way forward is to dig in and test the claims and see if indeed there are other explanations and not stop defeated when there are no other and not be afraid to speculate so that others can use your speculation as fodder to go on. Simply stopping becuase the evidence points to alien space ships is not the scientific way. You dig further until nothing is left that can be anything else but what you uncover. You might uncover some strange things about human phsycology, you mihgt disicover some strage aspects of the natural world none had known about. You might even disicover evidence that points to alien visitation but one thing is for sure, simply stopping before the real investegations are done will, yeald absolutly no new knowlege what so ever...

It was me who first used UFO as synonymous to alien visitation in another thread, i was using it as it is used in the popular way. You pointed out this was not correct and I changed my usage to the scientific definition in all other communications. Israel has it's own "sightings" as well. Quite high for such a small country. Their is indeed evidence that is impossible to explain any other way. In this thread and IMHO it's not about aliens directly but about the value of the investigations that only serve to debunk the idea of UFOs being anything but conventional things seen in an unconventional way. investigations that start out with an assumed explanation that is made to fit no matter what the evidence. this does not fit the evidence in most cases of UFOs, that assumes UFO in the original correct definition. First of all as I said above, my contention is that UFOs have not been properly investigated, the evidence was always ignored over the need to have conventional explanation. Alien visits is one of several possibilities but the idea that no UFO sighting is indicative of anything but natural phenomena is simply wrong. Even by the strict standards of science the phenomena has not been investigated properly so saying that all unidentified would identified as natural objects if only enough evidence was available is false. Lets eliminate the possibilities one by one and see what is left. Each time it comes down to no matter how good the evidence is it has to be a natural object, this world view is patently false and assumes from the get go that the ETI theory is false. Saying their are a huge number of other possibilities on UFOs (the real definition, not the popular one) is at best just a smoke screen and at worst an attempt to preserve a world view that doesn't hold water, much like the idea of religion being untouchable 50 years ago in the mainstream. Now the idea of aliens assumed to be false or at best something mistaken is the correct world view, but preservation of a world view is not good enough to to put something in the category of ridiculous, let me make it very clear, the only thing i am claiming completely is that UFOs have not been scientifically investegated as everyone seems to assume. UFOs have been explained away not investigated. there are many sightings that are simply impossible to explain any way but the ETI theory, it is still a theory but the evidence points strongly in that direction. If only one sighting was a real alien space craft then it is the most important sighting in human history. to assume all are false due to some being iffy or to preserve a world view is simply wrong. I cannot argue UFOs are alien space craft because the evidence has not been properly investigated, this also means i cannot argue they are conventional objects either. Until the subject gains some credibility no one will ever even bother to look. i will admit to some prejudice here, i cannot assert the EDI or MM theories either, even though they have been espoused by thinkers better than me. Once we investigate the evidence properly it will be easier to say what theory is best but we do have UFOs to explain, not the popular lights in the sky definition but the original definition, a unidentified object that that been investigated to the limits of the evidence and technology.

Aren't you originally from England? If so the UFO mythos is just as active there as the USA. I have provided so many links to this information, does no one read anymore? Try looking up J Allen Hynek, he is a starting point for a lot of very good info on this subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Allen_Hynek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Vall%C3%A9e I like this from Vallee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object Tell me exactly what you want to read and I'll look it up, if it exists I'll find it but it may very well be we are not on the same track. No, not being made up, what do you mean hard proof? So far the idea is that the evidence was never really investigated, no intent to investigate anything ever really existed. the only thing important that was producing an explanation that was conventional. scientists were hired to provide these explanations so they would seem true based on who was giving them not based on any evidence. We would have to actually investigate the evidence before we can actually say crappy or good. So far the only claim i am making is that evidence was ignored in favor of any conventional explanation that could be made to fit, often this resulted in ridiculous claims. I make no claim as to what UFOs are, i do claim the evidence was never really used to show anything other than conventional explanations that often fit no better than simply pulling a random reason out of nothing and giving it as scientific truth. Of course but ridiculing you for making that assertion would be wrong, especially is i used a scientist to back up my counter assertion the moon is made of chalk when in reality neither of us really knows what the moon is made of. You are assuming all unknowns in the sky are UFOs, this is not the definition of UFO, secondly i am not assuming all UFOs are alien space craft, i think it's a possibility that has been ignored denied and ridiculed by the military and the media for so long it is now impossible to really know or even investigate the possibilities, aliens is only one possibility. UFO does not assume aliens but it does assume no known explanation after all the evidence has been studied. Again you are making the assumption that all UFOs are aliens not me, i have never made that assumption with out caveats anywhere.

Leatherback sea turtles maintain their body temps above ambient, as do great white sharks and tuna. Even some insects maintain their body temps above ambient temps. Some snakes generate enough body heat to brood their eggs, keeping them above ambient temps. Warm blooded is a relative thing and even mammals do not always keep their body temps up, some birds, hummingbirds come to mind, lower their body temps to ambient temps at night when they cannot feed. Many mammals lower their body temps when they are inactive.

We know lies were told because the people who told them have admitted to it. We know that science or the testimony of scientists was used to make the lies look "scientific". Ridicule with the look of science was used so that all the UFO sightings would look ridiculous. We know because there was never any effort to study UFOs only to ridicule them and use the idea of science to make them look like mundane events even though the explanations themselves had no real connection with science or reality. We know because scientists who worked for the military came out and said the explanations were faulty and not connected with any real scientific scrutiny of the evidence. Now what the lies were covering up is debatable but the ridicule attached to the idea of UFOs in general prevents this from happening on any realistic basis. This ridicule has resulted in the media circus that surrounds and pervades the entire issue of UFOs to this day.

When you are in contact with the Earths surface you are traveling at the same speed as the earths surface. simply levitating above the earth does not negate that speed. So you would tend to travel with the Earths surface any way you look at it. I'm not sure what the speed difference between the surface of the earth and two feet higher is but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't put you half way around the planet as fast as an airplane would take you.

No one is equating lies with secrets here. Lies are not the same thing as secrets but lies are told to protect secrets. In this case we do not know why the lies were told, only that lies were told. Science was used to show lies as being the truth. There could be many reasons for the lies, no excuse for using science to confirm the lies, no excuse to keep up the lies to cover secrets that no longer matter if indeed the lies were used to cover up military secrets.

I agree that psychology is a big part of the whole UFO/Alien Visitation/God/Supernatural phenomena. I agree, once the decision was made to ridicule instead of study it took on a life of it's own. Being right is very important to Governments in general the USA in particular. I honestly think at first the people in charge just could not accept the idea of any technological superior aliens visiting us for any reason. In the military and other parts of government it is standard practice to chop off the head of the bearer of bad news and when you have the power to do so you can insist on reality follow your own preconceptions regardless of the consequences. I have my doubts about this, Mutually Assured Destruction is the same no matter who has the space craft. Possession of a space craft would have just made the position of the one who didn't have it worse and the idea of war even less likely to have an outcome that would be positive to the attacker. I disagree, instant attack would have just brought instant annihilation, a positive outcome would have been just as unlikely to both sides. Often the original lie is a good thing in the short term but long term lies only get weaker and less likely to have a positive outcome. In this case the original lie has completely stopped all scientific inquiry into something that should be very interesting to science from psychology to astronomy but the subject is assumed to be bullshit from the beginning and no one dares to swim upstream to really investigate the subject at all. Any attempt to even discuss the subject is met with ridicule and hostility, the paradigm of the military white wash has resulted in no one being able to approach the subject seriously under any circumstances, the popular media insures this will always be true.

Wub a dub dub? Three men in a tub? Then what Phi said

You got ugly feet dude, i have to ask, as has everyone else you come in contact with i am sure, what were you thinking! Guns and automobiles, two deadly things people take for granted and believe only they can operate them safely. De-cocking a loaded gun while you are walking, oh yes great idea for sure. I give you points for allowing others to use you as a bad example, most people wouldn't be willing to admit to a mistake like this one, much less allow others to learn from it too, so go the extra step dude, never do this or anything else foolish with a gun again! Get a gun with a de-cocker! I am glad you didn't do anymore damage but please use this as learning experience!

I am sure it does, there is evidence that at one time the moon was volcanically active, billions of years ago but for all practical purposes the moon lost any gases it might have had literally billions of years ago. It does have traces of certain gasses, some might come from meteorite strikes or even active active volcanic vents but to us it's a quite good vacuum. I'm not sure if there any gasses the moon might have that are heavy enough be held by it's gravity. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedhere is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_the_Moon

The Earth has what is known as a secondary atmosphere, volcanic gasses left over after the hydrogen and helium escaped. Gravity is what holds an atmosphere down but it's not an either or type thing. if you could somehow give the moon it's own atmosphere it could hold onto it for many thousands of years. The gases escape slowly over time, the lower the gravity the faster they escape.

I remember when streaking was a popular "thing to do" now streaking could make you a sex offender and public enemy #1

I agree, sex offender comes very close to defining anyone who has sex that you do not approve of. The nude pics of post pubescent minors being porn or illegal is definitely questionable. As a society we go from allowing just about anything sexually to allowing almost nothing sexually, the bar has moved a couple of times just in my lifetime. As in most things the extremists seem to get the attention they want and the rest of us follow along because we don't want to be labeled by the extreme as part of the problem.

There is always something to blame death on other than old age? ok ok I'll give it a rest!

King, North TX, I am very sympathetic to your assertion that historical references should carry more weight than they do. But if modern eye witness testimony and actual photos that have been investigated and shown not to be fake do not hold any weight i have to admit that historical accounts would seem to have to hold even less value. The real problem here is that UFOs/alien visitation has never really be investigated with real science. The real hoax is the assertion that these sightings have been scientifically investigated when in fact the government hired scientists to try and make their own cover up seem scientific. What appeared to the general public as scientists investigating the cause of UFOs wasn't. What was really happening was the government insisting on hired scientists to prove their assertion that UFOs are never anything more than silliness. The government approved studies always came back with what the government wanted to hear or they were fired and new people were hired to say what the government wanted said. This mentality of finding something conventional to blame UFO sightings on no matter how silly the finding was upset many of the scientists hired to debunk UFOs as well as some scientists not connected to the investigations in any way other than recognizing that Science did not work that way. The ridicule and derision piled on the idea of UFOs and alien visitation by the government studies influenced all other studies and made the idea of "it's already been done" widely held in the science community even though it is blatantly untrue. The very few independent studies done of a few of the serious sightings left the researchers "deeply puzzled" and wondering why the sightings had been dismissed so easily.

Were you talking to me with this one mooey? I gave no painting as an example of anything. Again, no picture or painting was given by me as evidence of anything. I was referring to the back story. I was just showing what I thought King might be referring to as evidence of metallic disks in antiquity, not proof of anything. Not what i was trying to show to begin with. My contention is that science has never investigated UFOs or alien visitation on any wide spread or official scale ever. But this was not offered by me as proof of anything, i was just trying to show some of what King is referring to. Lots of those metallic disk sightings have been "reported" as occurring in antiquity but none have any thing to back them up but paintings and semi official records. Since no eye witness, official account, painting or photo can ever be evidence I see no reason to use them as such. Again i was just providing a reference to metallic disks in antiquity, nothing more. I'm not sure why "different interpreters" making mistakes in their interpretations is a problem. In lots of cases not involving UFOs differing opinions between interpreters compounding mistakes has been accepted as why differing accounts vary, sometimes wildly. Truly i was just giving an example of where the idea of metallic disks King was referring to came from in ancient writings, i wasn't trying to assert they were proof of anything but that metallic disks had been reported.

This smells of spam to me.

Here is one account, not sure if it's what King is talking about. http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case491.htm

Why didn't you say so to begin with all powerful ydoaPs!

Not quite supernatural now is it? So far I have zero desire to worship you ydoaPs