Moontanman

Do you split these atoms via technology or just force of will?

Is this a contradiction or am i not reading it correctly?

Wasn't Jesus quoted as saying that the second coming would occur before the generation present had died?

Beieve it or not that is where i was going with this. Thats more to do with it having to be so light to function due to it being chemically powered. The US claims this particular case is not their doing in any way shape or form. You say invulnerable, i seem then as technically advanced enough to be much more reliable than our technology is but still a malfunction is possible. There is no doubt it was radiation, probably x-rays or gamma rays but the kicker in this case is the helicopters seen by several other witnesses as well. Either this was a US government test vehicle or the US gov knows aliens space craft are visiting. No other explanation makes sense if the helicopters are real. My bad, hard for me not to respond to ridicule of the idea. this is more to this than just silliness. I was told to stick to the official definition. by the official definition there are indeed UFOs. Works for me, i know i screwed the pooch on this one for sure. I will just have to agree to disagree on that. That is because of the unreasonable ridicule the subject of UFOs inspire, mostly due to the media circus surrounding it and the official government position which is not necessarily the official position by science as I have shown in the previous post. Works for me Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged I'm not particularly comfortable with option 7 that seems like another thread to me. Other than that it works for me. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged No, not really, as I have shown there is not only real evidence bu the idea it is all silliness below looking into is not the stance of science. I tis the stance of the government and the media, not real science. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedOk, since this thread has disintegrated into a debate about the validity of UFO reports and what they mean and how much weight such reports have been given and whether or not science has studied UFO reports i would like to add what I think is the most important aspect of UFOs and science. "Hoax Theory" UFOs are at the center of one of the biggest hoaxes in the history of the US government and by proxy most other governments as well if no other reason simply by saying other governments reports are less than accurate because they weren't done by the US. The first two US government investigations offered a strong possibility that some UFOs were nuts and bolts space craft, probably extraterrestrial in origin. Their reports were simply not accepted by a general who said such a thing was impossible. so new investigations came back with what he wanted to hear. From that time forward the actual thrust of the US government studies of UFOs was to explain them away as hallucinations, misidentified conventional objects, or hoaxes. No real investigations were undertaken, the idea was to prove they were bogus, not to investigate what they were. Scientists like Dr. Allen Hynek complained about this and eventually left the government study groups, documents released by freedom of information acts verify that the government/military had no interest in UFOs other than to explain them away with the least effort. In common conspiracy theories you have "men in black" visiting people and telling them things like you must never tell or other wise warning them to keep quiet. the reality was that wittinesses were often bullied and badgered into recanting what they saw not keeping secretes. The police officer of 1964 Socorro UFO encounter was badgered repeatedly to get him to recant but he never did. Most people who are skeptics today think that the governments efforts to investigate UFOs was in good faith and resulted in no physical or scientific evidence of anything. This is the real hoax, the government pulled off this hoax for their own reasons but it can be seen in documents and papers that were published at the time. They did intensionally steer the investigations toward simple things and dismissing people out of hand and ridiculing people was how they worked this "hoax", they were pretty open about it at the time because most people didn't realize that starting out to prove something you believe to be true is not science. Modern UFO "reports" from places like U-tube and the popular media hype of UFO lends an air of craziness and makes the idea of what the government claimed 40 years ago seem very truthful in comparison with the cottage industry that has grown in popular media to see who can make the best fakes and get the most people to look. this doesn't apply to just UFOs a great many things are hyped this way now days. The fact remains that UFO studies were fatally flawed by the simple notion that investigations started out with what they wanted to prove instead of starting out to see what the evidence held. Of the few official science investigations done they were often withheld critical evidence unless they were with the "program" This hoax by the government has taken away all possible credibility of UFOs simply by ridicule and a single minded need to disprove any possible mystery behind UFOs. Some say it was a vast conspiracy due to the government being in direct contact with aliens who exchanged being able to travel and do as they pleased in our sky's for technology. But like most conspiracy stories it ignores a simpler reason that makes more sense in context with the times. The first two investigations had the bad luck to report to someone who just refused to believe the possibility of such a thing. Like rocks falling from the sky in an earlier time the idea of nuts and bolts space craft was too far outside his world view and the idea we couldn't do anything about it was just too much. Even those reports admitted they had no solid proof just speculations based on what evidence they already had. Even later independent investigation inside the government tended to side with the possibility of actual alien space craft but were always hushed up in favor of the ridicule and debunking mindset. The most likely reason the government/military wanted to stop interest in UFOs was the fear that such a belief could be used in an attack and people could be induced into calling in and locking up data sources like telephones and a wide spread panic induced by the soviets this way could make the USA vulnerable to attack. Even way after this was no longer a likelihood the idea that UFOs must be squashed and people must be convince they are nothing to be concerned about staggered on like lots of government ideas, they never die once they get momentum going. Then there is the almost total inability for the government to admit to being wrong, making a mistake (especially back then) was just not something the government did, they wanted the government to seem incapable of making mistakes. So the whole idea that UFOs have been scientifically investigated and found to be nothing of significance is simply not true. But of course back then people did lie, they did try to fake stuff but then technology was more advanced than the fakes and the fakes were most often found. But the fact remains that very few UFO sightings were really investigated with scientific rigor. Sadly I'm not sure we can go back and do most or even any over, witnesses are dead, evidence has just been thrown out due to the success of the government hoax. Now days in part due to the hoax but mostly due to the idea that faking is fun and cool and very easy and very difficult to expose the signal to noise ratio of good sightings to bullshit is far to high to figure out what is really going on if anything. The hoax theory does not prove UFOs are alien space craft but it does indicate the the idea of UFOs being studied in the context of real science just didn't happen then and other than a few isolated incidents it doesn't happen now.

I think one of the problems with the interface of science in society is that the percived attitude of science is often dismissive and even ridiculing of what regular people think instead of being seen as taking the time to listen and explain. Sites like this one do a great job to bridging that problem but few regular people visit science forums. I believe most people are capable of understanding the principles of science but the idea of science being above the average person (this is not necessarily the attitude of science in general but often outside sources amplify this for their own ends IE the media for ratings or popularity) In turn real science people often responds to the media hype instead of the reality of regular people. The principles of science need to be brought into the common arena and things like U-tube and other popular media should be used in this way more often instead of being "lets see what we can convince people of today" The popular media has disintegrated into a circus that does it's best to get onlookers by telling them what they want to hear instead of what is correct. Of course until regular people see soem value in not attending the circus and start looking further than what some one wants them to believe it will not happen.

Pretty much yes, ydoaPs already has my respect but if he wants my worship a demonstration of power is in order...

It's right on the verge of being entertaining...

Isn't it true that the speed of light inside the fiber optics is still c when it's not interacting with the atoms of the optic fiber? if so there would be no acceleration out side the cable, just a lack of interactions the photons have to deal with.

I wonder if several people at the same time would be affected the same way and see the same thing as ball lightning? Then there are the people who have been killed by ball lightning in front of wittinesses. The study in the link provided is nothing but conjecture, no out of the lab effects have been seen nor have the hallucinations seen inside the lab been definitely equated with ball lightning in any way except it might be similar. Even the existence of ball lightning is nothing but eye witness testimony and therefore useless.

North and South is a better way to say it rather than + or -. I'm sure that a compass would be the most likely affected device, i know of no other devices that would be effected. Lack of an magnetic field between the reversal of the poles would be more likely to have an effect on electrical devices. Especially satellites that depend on the earths magnetic field to shield them from solar storms.

Big question, many ideas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning I've seen ball lightning, once, i was riding my dirt bike home late one night and on a long path through the woods along a mountain ridge a pale ball of light about as big as a basketball rose out of the ground about 30 feet ahead of me directly in my path. it rose fast enough that I went under it and when i stopped and looked back it was gone. No noticeable effects to my motorcycle but it is interesting i was rushing home to avoid an approaching thunderstorm.

Basically i guess, seven might be debatable as alien or not.

Moving the Earth is quite possible and it would be important to do so if we wanted to save the Earths entire ecosystem and not just bits and pieces of it as in colonies. The point is the move would be very slow and takes lots of time but then again the expansion of the sun would be slow as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay An atom emits one or more of several particles, resulting in a new atom of either lower energy or a different element and lower energy. In some atoms they do indeed split into two smaller atoms but more often a particle of some sort is emitted. if the process continued on down to it's lowest possible denominator you would end up with a hydrogen atom, protons are believed to be ultimately stable.

I've been trying my best to stick with that definition. I have never said that. Other than UFOs there is no indication of alien visits. No it is not an UFO, see the official definition of UFO I posted earlier. No I do not see how to separate them, UFOs are the only indication of alien visits we have. a great many of them have no other reasonable explanation, even science has admitted this in some cases. That still proves nothing but i can show many sightings that have no other reasonable explanation I feel very strongly that no reasonable evidence will ever be considered at all much less as a possibility in UFOs being aliens. Again, the veracity of UFO sightings is not what i am trying to discuss here, that would be a different thread altogether. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedOk, everyone seems to be insisting there is no science in this, that science does not think there is anything to this, that nothing scientific can be gained by even looking into it. here is what science has to really say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object more then again even more This stuff goes on and on, I contend that the ridicule of the idea of UFOs as "nothing to see here move on folks" is counter productive to science and against the scientific method as well. There is much more to UFOs than sillyness we must stamp out!

I bet they got the technology from UFOs...

if the reality or non reality of UFOs is what every one wants to discuss i can offer evidence that is really convincing, far less convincing evidence has been used to put men to death. Do we really want to go there ?

No, I have already been admonished for using that definition of UFO, this is the scientific definition of UFO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object Popular usage, which i have been told cannot be used here, means an alien space craft. From the same link... Yes, and there are many unknown sightings that do not have that hindrance as well. The fact remains the reality of UFOs is not what i want to discuss in this thread as I have said many times, that would be another thread, another discussion altogether.

So aliens don't check out their craft or do not at least try as hard as we do to keep them from failing in mid "use"? I do not understand your point here. Bullet proof? Why not? Try to shoot down a F-16 with a Sopwith Camel. Advanced technology should be extremely hard to shoot down at the very least. I am curious, I have just presented you with evidence that is not only unexplainable by any terrestrial means but it was seen by witnesses not connected with the three people harmed. No conventional explanation fits at all, why is it so despicable to suggest the ETI explanation? Radiation proves it was not only real but totally unnatural and unconventional and not a hallucination. Please name a possibility that makes sense other than the ETI idea? What else could it be? What else flies, is obviously technology, leaves behind real evidence of it's reality in the form of radiation, and flies away into the sky? Nuclear powered birds? No the hypothesis is that this alien space craft did which specks to a another idea that alien space craft would be nuclear powered. It is not a huge leap to think a alien space craft would be nuclear powered in some way and a craft having problems might release radiation. To be honest this sighting is not my favortie and i think it has a another possible explanation but the alien explanation is at least a reasonable one to suggest in this case. i am amazed you cannot see the possibility is quite good in this case if it weren;t for one small thing most people ignore but you haven't even brought up. As i said before i do not want to debate the evidence for UFOs being alien space craft, if you do start another thread. UFO by definition is an unknown with no conventional explanation, doesn't mean alien space craft but it doesn't apply to every light in the sky either. I am nothing if not flexible, if that makes a difference then please change the post to alien space ships and not UFOs, I doubt very seriously it will make any difference but feel free to change it, i cannot. It is premise that most people have, i used it to illustrate a point, UFOs are the only indication we have of frequent alien visits, I see no reason to even suppose alien visits with out specking to the phenomenon of UFOs. No other phenomenon suggests there is any reason to even consider the possibility.

Not invulnerable but i am not contending that aliens fly over head with the regularity of airliners either and yet how often do airliners fall out of the sky on any one place? I would also like to point out that airliners fall out of the sky not only very seldom they do so with less frequency as our technology gets better. I'm not sure how many aircraft fall out of the sky per millions of air miles or flights but it is a very small number. i see no reason to not expect high tech aliens to do much better and since their flights numbers are very small the expectation of one falling out of the sky is unreasonable over any but the largest time spans. Believe it or not I do see your point but what evidence is there is was anything else or could have been anything else? Why would radiation be contradictory to the traditional UFO idea and what is the traditional UFO idea? An alien craft in trouble, this would seem to be exactly what you are looking for as evidence, many different witnesses and some physical evidence that is not explained by natural, conventional or hallucinogens. I am not saying that at all, I'm saying you are looking for totally unreasonable evidence and while there are many sightings known to have conventional explanations UFOs by definition have no conventional explanations. The assumption is that UFOs are alien space craft, I have said that I understand that some people have a problem with the idea of UFOs being anything but bullshit to begin with but in this context we are talking about UFOs for a reason. i am not talking about a one time visit thousands of years ago. For a very real reason i am talking about relatively frequent visits in modern times as well as historical times. Almost anyone would recognize the label UFO as speaking to this premise. I think you are picking nits.

I'm sorry soot is what i was trying to say,

I picked up an old vinyl LP yesterday in the record store. Maria Muldaur "Waitress in a Donut Shop" Absolutely great shape, plays like it was 1974! I love to make a find like this! I'm listening to it now!

Good point IA, I've seen a candle burn in chlorine, a smoky fire with lots of soot.

First of all i would like to point out his contention is not new, many people have conjectured any meeting between humans and aliens would result in us getting the shitty end of the stick. i think to the everyday person Hawking is an authority much like Einstein is. In many ways a cult of personality describes both of them quite well. I know it was just speculation, i disagree with his premise but no one would care about my ideas but his are taken almost as some absolute truth, if not by science then almost certainly by average people.

I understand that but it doesn't fit in this case IMHO As i have stated many times, you are not going to get a piece of an alien no matter how bad you want it, aliens seem to frown on leaving their dead or parts there of behind. Only an alien space craft, i guess aliens needed to land and apologize? Then i guess creationists demanding a half dog half cat is indeed reasonable. Skeptic, are you trying to be funny or do simply not pay attention to what i type? Even though i take exception to your contention they are separate ideas or issues i want to assume both, they make perfect sense together and i see no reason to separate them for the point of this discussion.