Moontanman

Actually, no, we cannot control robots on alien planets, even at the distance of the moon, time delay due to the speed of light prevents any real control over robots.

No one is saying that space travel can be used to ease population pressure on the Earth any more than Spanish galleons could have been used to ease over crowding in Europe in the 15th century, even now it would be impractical to bring people from one continent to another faster than they could reproduce. However resources, raw materials and even manufactured goods (no i have no idea what could be manufactured in orbit better than on the earth) could be brought to the earth not to mention colonies could and probably would be built in free orbit around the sun in around and near asteroids, around the gas giants and in the Trojan positions of those planets. There is no way at this time to predict what theses colonies or even resources might contribute to the Earth but I am quite sure by then we will know.

I've been told there were several things in play that prevented me from feeling pain, shock, endorphins released by injury, and being underwater. Supposedly being under water over whelms your body's ability to feel pain. I have noticed at other times while scuba diving I have been slammed up against barnacle covered rocks or pilings and not realized I was injured until i left the water even though the injury was quite painful after leaving the water. I do know I felt no pain until i received a shot of morphine and then the pain went past any describable level.

Zolar, have you been following this thread? I have and it has gotten way off the original OP.

It seems to me this argument is bogus, providing social services does not make a government socialist, all governments provide socialist type services to their people. Socialist does not equal communist and a democracy is not threatened by offering social services to it's people.

No, it is not fusion, did you read think I provided about nuclear powered space craft? I have to admit I generally agree, waiting for the correct technology is simply too risky, if Columbus had waited for steam ship technology where would we be now? It might have been better for my people but the new world and everything that came from it would be drastically different if someone had told Columbus, aww just wait we'll have better technology in a few hundred years. Well be able to fly over the Atlantic instead of months by sailing ship. Anyway you look at it, research should not be stopped, the return on space technology has been tremendous, nearly our entire technological civilization depends on space related technology. Right now were spending a pittance on space travel, if we had spent just 20% of what we spent on killing each other since 1950 on space travel humans would already own the inner solar system and yes the resources of the inner solar system would make a big difference in our own lives.

Actually nec, the cost of space travel is quite small when compared to the money we spend on the military, the Iraq war cost more money in just a few days that the entire NASA budget for a year. Space travel is pitifully under funded.

Foodchain, you are mistaken, in the sea vent communities only the bacteria are anaerobes, the animals breath and metabolize oxygen just like you do. It's a mistaken idea that these communities of large animals are independent of the sun, they rely on oxygen from photosynthesis just like me and you. Only the bacteria are independent of the sun, not the animals. No you cannot say the same thing about iron or carbon, free oxygen is not necessary for life, just animal life. a great many bacteria and archea do quite well with no oxygen. Oxygen to many of these life forms is poisonous, but to have animals, and complex plants too for that matter you have to have oxygen. Oxygen metabolism is necessary for animals.

There are no anaerobic complex life forms, anaerobic respiration does not provide enough energy for complex life forms. you will find no anaerobic fish or crustaceans or even worms or even protists. All animals need free oxygen, oxygen doesn't make prey animals more energy dense, it allows them to exist, predators follow prey but with no oxygen you have neither. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged No one is saying there are no anaerobic life forms, there are lots of anaerobic bacteria and archea. Oxygen is actually bad for many life forms, when oxygen was released by photosynthesis it was a poison and wiped the Earth of many life forms but once it became possible for life to use oxygen complex life became possible until then bio films were as complex as life could get.

I would have to assume that at some point all resources have the potential to become limited, space travel would have to be quite frequent to deplete all the nuclear energy on the planet and I would also have to assume there would be off planet sources of nuclear materials. It shouldn't take long before off planet sources of nuclear materials replace Earth based sources if for no other reason they would easier to exploit. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged I think that manned missions are far more flexible than robotic missions, having an actual human being, boots on the ground, is more than valuable enough to make sure that eventually men will have to travel in space. Exploitation of resources in space as well as expansion of humanity will require humans in space, probably in orbiting colonies, I honestly expect there will be more humans in space than on planet Earth in 1000 years.

I think it's safe to say that genetic material can be transfered via plasmids and virus but until there was oxygen it mattered very little in relation to complex life. Complex life required oxygen to get started, with out our oxygen there is just not enough energy to support anything but bacteria.

Nuclear = low thrust? Not really see this link. http://www.nuclearspace.com/Liberty_ship_menupg.aspx

Ok, I got my idea twisted, when I was thinking of complex life animals were on my mind, but multicellular prokaryotes? Bio-films are not multicellular organism by what most consider multicellular, this is how ever very interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myxobacteria I guess my definition is a bit less inclusive, I know plants and animals and fungi are complex life with fungi being more closely related to animals than plants but I still think my contention that oxygen was the factor that allowed complex life to evolve. By my definition protists are on the border of complex life, bacteria are not although the before mentioned Myxobacteria show I might need to rethink that. But If I read the link correctly myxobacteria are oxygen life forms as well. Quite possibly the idea that if not for Eukyrotes there would be no animals needs to be rethought but so far Eukarotes seem to be the first animals and bacteria and archea are still looking to get in the race, lol

I have to agree with that phi.

Even when unconscious mammals have an instinctive breath holding response. That combined with being a scuba diver and free diver allowed me to not panic. The first things I noticed was the mud and the oyster shells under me, i was being dragged by the current very slowly, it was almost slack tide so the current was very slight. Then I noticed the light all around me allowing me to see where it had been complete darkness an instant before. The constant underwater noises of the night were also there as well as the sound of the outboard motor running over head. When I kicked off the bottom for the surface my left leg totally collapsed but there was no pain at all.

I think it's important to understand that in the USA religion has been hobbled to some extent, religious extremism can be against the law. There is a definite limit to how far religion can go in the USA without the government stepping in and stopping it. There are how ever both in the past and now examples of societies that do not limit religion in any way, usually these are theocracies and religion often does seem to gravitate toward extremest view points fostered by fundamentalism. Not very many centuries ago Christianity was just as violent and fundamentalist as what we see as extremist religions now. The main impediment to religion getting out of hand is a secular government, as long as the government requires religion to follow some basic laws that are outside the frame work of religion, religion can be tolerated but even in the USA religion fights to get free of any law they feel like it keeping them from influencing the masses "their" way. If in the USA laws limiting religion were repealed eventually the religious would be not only controlling everyones lives they would be fighting each other for control. Religion always tries to control everything as much as they can, this results in a slide toward extremism fueled by fundamentalism. Freedom of religion was and still is a concept that freed humanity from the tyranny of religious fundamentalism and extremism.

I think GW is most crippled by it's name, it should be Global Climate Change, Global Warming suggests that all is going to happen is the weather will be warmer, Sadly many people will pick up on the cover of a book with out ever actually reading it (I always thought the way a music album can have a wild cover and pick up buyers just for the cover is a good analogy) Most people do not care to read deeply in a science paper and usually stop once they think they have the gist of what it is about. Global Warming = higher temps every where. We might know that is not the case but most people do not see it that way. Then of course there is the religious aspects of it, it ranges from the idea that man cannot have the power to change climate, only god could do that, to the whole thing is the realization of biblical prophecy and man cannot do anything about because the end of the world is coming blah blah blah

The boat wreck was a very emotional thing, I very nearly died, if not for scuba training I am quite sure I would have. I was ejected from a small aluminum boat after we struck a piling head on at full throttle, I'm really not sure how fast were going but a 14' aluminum Jon boat and 20hp motor at full throttle would be the key in judging how fast we were going. The flat bow of the boat collapsed around the piling and the bot continued to turn around the piling with the motor still going full bast, the driver of the boat was knocked unconscious and had a flounder spear run through his leg, The other guy who was ejected received minor injuries but i hit the gunnel of the boat before being ejected, my leg was shattered between a cooler and the seat of the boat. I woke up on the bottom of the inland water way in 25 or 30 feet of water at 02:00, the bottom was typical for that area, oyster shells and mud. I do not remember being ejected from the boat but I woke up surrounded by a bright light that showed the details of the bottom quite clearly. The voice told me to get up and swim or I was going to die and that it was not my time to die. I remember being very fuzzy at the time, I didn't want to get up, I liked it there but the voice and the light brought me alert immediately. When I tried to swim if found my left leg was useless and shattered, I swam to the surface (my leg flopped like a dead fish as I swam) When I got to the surface the other passenger was swimming but I surfaced in range of the motor and I had to duck under the propeller several times until the driver of the boat woke up and turned it off. the other guy climbed into the boat but I couldn't due to my injuries. Once they dragged me into the boat I could see my foot was turned around backwards, bent double the wrong direction and bones were sticking out of my skin, my arm was broke and as was several bones in my hand. It was the beginning of 18 months of recover and set backs, I never regained complete use of my leg. I have no idea, possibly my unconscious was trying to find a away to get me to wake up, I have a wild imagination and this could very well have just been my brain trying to get my attention. That sounds about as reasonable as anything else. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged This would seem to be a very good conclusion, the vision being accurate could have just been coincidence.

I was under the impression that multicellular complex life had only evolved once and then speciated from that one time. Can you give examples of how multicellular life has evolved more than once?

I think multicellular life evolved when it did because it could, the advent of oxygen in the atmosphere allowed the development of complex life, no amount of virus particles or plasmids could have caused it to happen before free oxygen became available.

Well since I am a non believer in the supernatural I tend to go with some sort of self fulfilling brain fart just as I was about to wink out from lack of oxygen. But I was told a son when at the time my wife and I were obsessed about having a girl, we already had a son. I was told my son would be exactly like me and that he would have my abilities and a few other things all of which are true, people cannot tell us apart on the phone, he likes nearly everything I do from music to fiction he looks just like me, my pics of me at his age are hard to tell apart, the voice said that he would, unlike me, be tall, but one thing the voice did say was that he would be different in that he would be able to use the talents i had never been able to use. so far he has done a really excellent job of that but still a oxygen starved brain fart is as good as any other explanation.

Oh quite specific, i was lying on the bottom of the inland water way, in black water, about 25' under, about 02:00 unconscious with a severely broken ankle , arm, and hand. I woke up to a very bright light revealing the details of the bottom in what should have been jet black water. a voice told me to get up, it wasn't my time to go, it told me i was going to have another child, a boy, and that he would be very special. It also told me a few other things but I'll hold those back for now. Since I have never believed this particular brand of BS I am not really comfortable as some in assigning this supernatural significance. All the stuff I was told was personal, no great description of general future events. three years later i did indeed have a son (I had planned to have a baby just before the boat wreak, my wife and I wanted a girl, but the wreck stopped those plans until i could recover) (It took 18 months to get back on my feet) My son has proved to be rather special, he is about to graduate from UNC Chapel Hill and go on to law school. He has been on the deans list though much of his studies and he has some big plans, so far the things i was told in the "dream" have come true, not the way I thought they might but still true. Some of the stuff was just small things about my life and some were big things about my sons but so far all of it has come true. I think i was in some sort of contact with my self from the future but then again it could all just be self fulling, that is probably the most likely explanation, too damn bad I wasn't told the lotto numbers, lol

This explains it much better than I ever could http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion

So the Earth was smaller during the time of the dinosaurs is the reason Africa and South America "fit" and the since the Earth was smaller dinosaurs could be bigger 6000 years ago before God made the planet bigger during Noah's flood to let the land come back up and the greater gravity killed off the now too big dinosaurs so Satan could deposit their bones under the ground to fool science? Makes perfect sense when you add faith and take away the idea the world is objective and consistent. Yes and they will have reason to laugh, unless of course you claim it was "God's Perfect Will" then they have to give you respect. Yes and so it begins, the idea of destroying science by commanding science respect religion more than it respects it's self. So far God has caused me zero problems in my life, But his fan club has proved to be sneaky, insidious, disingenuous, and quite often deadly.

Does a near death experience count as a dream? I had a near death experience during a boat wreck-near drowning, I had a very long and detailed vision of the future, so far all of it has come true.