Moontanman

Where does all the mass come from?

It is not a secret, the title of the book is "the UFO encyclopedia" by Jerome Clark and Angela L. Williams , the video is "UFOs the secret history" the relevant section is 37:45 to 40:15 . There are several books with this title but only the one by those authors is said to be the source of the video by the producer of the video. I was thinking of going to the book store and seeing if I could tract down paper back versions since the dates on the book and the film do not exactly match but as the moment I am without transportation but I will get around to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDb1oyVKnP4

The link spoke to the idea that a cover up was going on. The Coyne link was an example of a sighting that has been dismissed as a slow moving meteor. I got the quote from a video, the man being interviewed claimed it. I searched for the quote and or source material for the video and after google and contacting the producers of the video I found the source material for the video was a book currently costing $155, the book is not exactly new so I am hoping the library will have a copy. The video in question has been quite accurate so far in it's information I have been able to check on so I think it would be constructive to track this down but not if my efforts are going to be dismissed as untrustworthy... And yes I was told I could not be trusted on this subject due to my "beliefs"

SwansonT and Strange I practically covered Page 4 of this thread with citations backing up my statements. It took considerable time and effort to do so the least you guys could have done is commented on them. The quote about the Airforce offering Condon more money is in a book that costs $150 as are the source material for several others. Not something I am going to buy but when I get transportation back I do plan to go to the public library and see if they have a copy meanwhile I would appreciate some sort of answer to my citations for the things I was able to track down. Especially after being accused of dishonesty...

WOW! Now that is a party!

Back when I was young I held quite a few pig pickin's, getting pulled pork trucked in by a caterer is not even close to being able to dig into that whole pig! I had a charcoal cooker on wheels and all the big pots and pans. I did it for fun at friends houses and mine. My only requirement was that my buddy Pepe bethere for moral support...

This looks so good! I am currently building a grill, this looks like a good debu cook!

Unless you are a trained microbiologist a microscope will do you little if any good in identifying disease organisms. I once had access to a complete biolab not to mention an actual marine biologist buddy and we found it to be pretty much useless. Your discriptions could apply to a great many fish health problems but fish are notoriously difficult to diagnose. My first question is where did your decorations come from? I violate this rule regularly but the most intractable problem with dying fish I ever tried to diagnose turned out to be rocks collected from around the guys house that had been sprayed a couple years before with a powerful anti termite insecticide. Secondly there are very few common fish diseases that cannot be cured by raising the water temps and salinity as high as tolerated by the fish for a couple weeks. Thirdly and this is the one you are going to hate, either kill them or let them die, let the tank set at high temps and or salinity for a month or so then take it down to more reasonable temps and salinity before adding new fish. It's difficult to do this but sometimes fish will simply bring in something that is close to incurable but many of not most of these intractable diseases need intermediate hosts to survive long term and one they have none the organism will die out. I wish I could actually be there and see and smell the tank, many times your own senses can detect things you might not think of other wise. If the tank smells bad then your problem is probably outside the fish. Hydrogen peroxide does a pretty good job of sterilization but it takes a while to disperse, a week or more, and pretty much kills everything... Sorry if I seem a bit cruel, I've been doing this for 55 years and if I had all the money I spent on aquarium medications that didn't work I could probably buy me a new car...

I am a long time aquarium hobbyist, do you have pictures of the infected fish? A detailed description might help as well. I am not a big fan of aquarium medicines, for the most part they are snake oil...

I've seen the whole dancing Venus thing several times, it's not unusual here on the coast but it never made me think of aliens just a temperature inversion. I did see huge purple clouds suddenly erupt in the night sky while traveling through the green swamp about 35 years ago. Now that was spooky, we pulled off the road and took photos but they never turned out. Years later I found out it was a NASA venture where they were releasing Chemicals in low Earth orbit to study radiation or something like that... http://www.nuforc.org/Coyne.html

Why odes the old saw "have you been drinking or smoking" always come up when UFOs are talked about? Of course it does but as I said this is never a qualification when people claim that UFO reports suffer from a lack of data. Your opinion is meaningless please give an example of me dismissing explanations out of hand.... You are in no position to judge me on this and I have stated many times I do not believe in aliens are you calling me a liar? Or can you show something that indicates I am a liar? Actually they have and admit that many sightings are extraordinary see France's assessment. But is it true the USA has a considerable influence on other governments but nonetheless UFO reports are world wide but largely dismissed because they are dismissed by the US and so must be what the US says they are. Perhaps because it does and you being unwilling to consider it are unaware of it. Strange you are being insulting/disrespectful for no apparent reason... I would suggest that if this discussion pushes your buttons you withdraw from it... https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/97unclass/ufo.html

Talk about missing the point, then it was gods now it's aliens but the emotional doubling down on something unknown as an explanation for the unknown that has no hard evidence is very much the same... You should google the Contactee movement of the 50s... I know people personally that still cling to that movement and refuse to consider how ridiculous it is...

Yes, in fact mrmack did in the above post. As would I but the go to explanation of lies or hallucinations brought on by drugs is insulting. BTW what drugs exactly cause people to see aliens? Lack of data, no qualifier, is often used to dismiss sightings, now the data has quality? Yet there is no guideline for quality of UFO data... Give me another that ticks all the boxes to explain glowing objects hovering over nuclear missile silos that shut them down? So slow moving meteors or a comet can explain a UFO when meteors do not move slowly, could not explain an object seen close up, and comets appear stationary in the sky for weeks? I have no faith, I am an apistevist, but skepticism can be taken to far as easily as faith... No I am saying it's quite possible the Air Force is trying to cover up their own activities by invoking UFOs and the meme got out of hand early on and they haven't been able to put the genie back in the bottle... Hence the "me too" comment I made... I am of the opinion that in the UFO phenomena we are witnessing first hand the manner in which religions form...

I find it very difficult to assume everyone is lying that claims to see a UFO, I know that some sightings suffer from an embarrassment of data not always lack of data. While I cannot honestly claim that any sighting I know of is extraterrestrial there are a few i cannot discount out of hand either. There was a time, when I was young, I pretty much expected a landing any day. As I became more and more skeptical I realised that unknown didn't necessarily mean extraordinary. How ever if I am honest i have to say that unknown doesn't mean mundane either. There are sightings that are are either straight up hoaxes or actual instances of ET prowling our skies with photos to back up the claims. There are a very small number that, if you have a normal level of curiosity, have to make you are least scratch your head and wonder WTF! I have done a lot of personal research in the "me too" phenomena of human behavior and i think it accounts for nearly all routinely repeated claims of extraordinary things. I'd be willing to bet money that sightings around the polar regions are magnetic or aurora related. Objects that shut down nuclear missile silos are either really extraordinary or faked by the US gov as tests. The Recent Nimitz sightings almost have to be drones or some sort of electronic warfare tests. My main problem with all of this and the reason for this thread, is the way data from UFO sightings is handled. It's not all that unusual for the explanation to be even less likely that the ET hypothesis... Slow moving meteors or comets? I mean come on, can anyone be dumb enough to even consider those? Fireflies between the windshields? Pelicanism is a big part of the debunkers and is just was bad as those who think every light in the sky is an alien spacecraft. I did not want this to degenerate into dueling sightings and yes i think the Air force is covering stuff up, it's not an "if" it's a "what" question... The Condon Report was fixed before it began, it's sad but true, that can be confirmed, I'm still looking for confirmation that the US Air Force Offered more money if what they first agreed to wasn't enough to come to the conclusion they were asking for. And yes The people doing the study, Condon as a matter of fact, asked the Air force what result they wanted. This could have been relatively innocent but it wasn't anyway to start what was supposed to be a scientific investigation. There was some relatively big names in science of the time period who changed sides and became supporters of the ET hypothesis although I think it was mostly because they realised the air force was covering something up. that cover up could have been anyone of a number of things but it made the endeavor look less than honest to say the least. If aliens land next week I'll be amazed but not as amazed as i would be if the moon split in half or the rapture occurred... Besides, this is all moot, Trump is going to announce soon that he cannot be impeached because space aliens will invade and he is the only person who can stop them.

I'm still looking into that. Some are better than others, often the difference is so small or the difference has to do with various parameters one has but the other does not it doesn't matter which one is chosen first. I honestly wonder what you kind of evidence it would take for you to at least make you wonder if a sighting was extraordinary instead of mundane...

Slow moving meteors and comets? You didn't catch that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condon_Committee So if one is crap both both are? You are gonna have to excuse my inability to use the quote system, something is wrong with my key board today, I can't seem to make it work but a link to this was included. If you want to get into specific cases it is really difficult to say one or another is the best. But this one is one of the more extraordinary... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ufo-nearcollision-with-army-helicopter-40-years-ago_n_4119987

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_J._Klass Just one example but Klass's remark that always got to me was his assertion that UFOs were slow moving meteors or comets. Klass did work in some capacity for the airforce as a consultant. Not hardly... On the other hand the Air Force did finance the only admitted scientific study called the Condon Report who asked the air force what results they would like and the airforce told them if they couldn't come to the proper conclusion to apply for more money... Let me ask you a question, have you ever really looked into any of the unexplained reports the military actually admits to? Minot Airbase is a good one i http://minotb52ufo.com/introduction.php There are plenty more. https://www.mufon.com/ufo-news/montana-air-base-loses-power-as-ufo-hovers-overhead

Philip Klass in the OP link said dumb radar operator when asked why the radar operators didn't agree with the weather inversion. He was semi famous for such remarks and Edward Condon publicly said he would destroy the careers of any scientist who took UFOs seriously. Just two examples there are more Dr Hynek was willing to take that risk not to mention stop the flow of money from the air force because he saw what they were doing had nothing to do with science. These have nothing to do with this thread. When Unidentified in the context of UFOs is more likely to mean explained away by the military in anyway the public can be convinced of. Dr Hynek and others of much less stature academically quit playing the Air Force's game when it became clear there was no study of anything but ways to cover up sightings. The Military has leaked like a sieve with people coming forward with some truly inexplicable sightings the military simply refused to even talk about, civilians have been involved and injured. Ground traces of landing and this is a wold wide phenomena but very few have the means to do more than shrug their shoulders and follow the lead of the US... All I wanted to talk about was how evidence is treated, that has been destroyed in this thread, you can close it...

I've actually seen ball lightning, it looks nothing like lightning and if it weren't observed during a thunderstorm, sometimes, a connection would have been unlikely to have been made. There are actually more than one manifestation of some spherical glows that are said to be ball lightning, even UFOs has been explained away as ball lightning. Plasmoids, not the kind associated with earth's magnetic field sounded like a homerun until someone pointed out there was no mechanism for such a thing to form or exist for extended periods of time.. Yet UFOs are mistakes by dumb radar operators.... Ad hom attacks piss me off... especially by people who have an agenda and threaten others who disagree with them... In the 1952 washington sighting it was written off as weather inversion even though the sighting could only partially be explained that way and the experts on site said that was not the case. Only people who had not been there with little to no expertise made that claim. The only honest answer was we don't know. No, actually I am not, I am saying the data is always twisted to get a negative, not null, result in nearly all cases, the ones that cannot be twisted that way are ignored or hidden. It's Why Dr Hynek came over to the other side.. The predetermined conclusion is always something mundane even though that is often close to being worse than aliens. If you don't know, you should say I don't know, not Venus was reflecting through a layer of haze and caused the pilot to see a V formation of glowing objects buzz his aircraft... I can say there is data that suggests something unknown is going on and claiming something mundane that doesn't fit is wrong. I am not asserting it's aliens, I am asserting the data is twisted to make some mundane explanation fit. Anyone who is saying that going from another star in one go is the only way it can be done. I would say that is the least likely way but that is just speculation. The deal about pictures has been with us from the very beginning, too good to be true or not good enough to be meaningful with little to no middle ground. I say you are because you lump it all together, some data is more compelling than others. Typo, my bad sorry... And yet the really great photos and videos coming out are meaningless, most UFO sightings are almost certainly of mundane things that could be why the actual number of sightings have gone down since we can take better photos now. No my position is that no true study of the data, all the data, has ever been undertaken and that ridiculous are often pushed to the point of being almost as unlikely as aliens... For quite sometime the "supernatural" in one form or another was assumed by many to be the case until real research was done, can you not see the actual parallel? Until evidence was gathered in a scientific way all the other explanations mundane or otherwise were meaningless.. They are mundane now, not then... Not ture my friend, many events have an embarrassing amount of data, if you read it the sighting in the OP is one such, weather phenomena could not have explained that sighting yet that was what was pushed like an ostrich up a ducks butt... Citation please... That is exactly what I have provided in the OP, I suggest you read it and put aside your surety it has to be mundane... I would agree but pushing the mundane that doesn't fit is not science and I think you would agree with that. AFAIK no scientific study of even a large number of random sightings has even been taken. The first study ever done was rejected out of hand because the man in charge simply refused to believe it, not because of a lack of evidence or due to a large number of scientists disagreeing, he simply we with his own incredulity...

Not until quite recently but well before then assumed to exist. You really don't see what you just did? Ball lighting had no evidence other than things people claimed to have seen yet was assumed to be a real phenomena. UFOs are attributed to dumb radar operators even when that, if it were true, doesn't even come close to explaining what occurred. The desperation to explain no mater what destroys any possible objectivity... And evidently still is... I'm not asking for conclusions, I'm asking for data to taken at face value rather than twisted to support some predetermined conclusion... This simply the same as saying that someone on a log raft couldn't get to North America from Europe therefore no one ever well. The Vikings did it in not much better though a series of smaller steps. Pictures are either too good to be true or not good enough to matter, not enough of them or far too many all of those have been used to debunk UFOs You are assuming, one all sighting have equal merit, two aliens must travel from their home planet to us in one go, three as we get more advanced we become more dangerous and better tech is used to observe, play, mess up or whatever it is that aliens do. Four, you are assuming they are aliens. There is a cavern someplace in the London Metro system, long abandoned, people who go there are sure they have contacted the supernatural, ghosts, demons ect. It was once and still maybe a popular tourist spot, a few researchers took it seriously and over a period of time were able to determine the acoustics of the cavern was the culprit. At least some legitimate researchers attribute some UFOs to earthquake lights and electromagnetic effects on the human brain when underground crystal deposits are stressed by tectonic movement. No smoking gun really but possible steps in the right direction that writing them off as dumb radar operators will not...

Just explain how multiple unrelated eyewitnesses saw glowing balls of light, said light lights interacted with aircraft, multiple independent radars, Military people on the ground seeing glowing balls, said glowing balls were seen over the white house and the best the air force could do was say weather inversions and dumb radar operators caused it? And Philip Klass said "dumb radar operators" no one who involved in the explanation initially was a scientist or even an expert in the systems being discussed, radar or weather. Now it probably wasn't alien space drones trying to piss off the POTUS but the "Dumb Radar Operator" quip by Dr Klass should have caused him to lose his academic standing at least as a UFO investigator...

I'm always ready to jump down that particular rabbit hole.

In the 1952 Washington sighting radar inversions don't cut it either... In fact it's just more insults from arch debunker Philip Klass who would deny aliens while they were giving him an anal probe... There was a lot of confusion going on during those two weekends but radar inversions to not even come close to explaining all or even most of them... It could have just been a perfect storm of natural phenomena but insulting the people who worked the radar and ignoring civilians on the ground with no knowledge of what was going on or interactions with aircraft was just dishonest... To answer that i would have to know why you think SETI should have detected them...

No one is asking anyone to assume there is no rational explanation... Just stop shoehorning in stuff that doesn't fit, be brave enough to simply say "I don't know" a reasonable skeptical 12 year old could pick apart the 1952 Washington, DC sightings so called explanation. The desire to appear to know what was going on was so strong they went out on a limb and sawed down the tree! I was say extrapolating... To be fair this video was about us in the not too horribly distant future...