Coral Rhedd

Hi Newtonian, I find your information on Geller interesting. Any references, links, etc. so that I can read more? Regards, Coral

Aardvark you said: "it would not be 'just' to punish someone for actions they were not responsible for." As long as we hold firmly to that principle, I believe we are in complete agreement about actions and consequences. Were we to get into hair-splitting details about what constitutes the ability to be responsible, we might find points of minor disagreement. As to what we have discussed previously in this thread, I would say we are in concordance. Regards, Coral

I enjoyed the conversation with everyone here. I now think I not only understand everyone's thinking better, but I also am clearer on my own.

Many mentally ill people take themselves out every year. They are far more likely to hurt themselves than they are to hurt others. But that's another story . . .

Yes, you are right. The best predictor we have of future behavior is usually past behavior. But too many mentally ill people who commit crimes are incarcerated when what would best serve them and the rest of us is long term care in a confined setting. In other words mental hospitals for the criminally insane. In fact, most mentally ill people who commit serious crimes don't want to go to a hospital for the criminally insane because they know that they are more likely to see freedom again if they go to prison. But prison is a bad place for people with mental illness or any other serious illness. Prisons do not offer proper treatment.

Perhaps because they were first "happy" at other people's expense.

I suspect you are one of our resident experts on these matters. You may even be practicing medicine for all I know, but I am uneasy with the idea that there are no triggering events for clinical depression. How often, for instance, does what later becomes clinical depression start out as reactive depression? How far away in time must an event be in order to not figure as a trigger?

You probably would not possess enough awareness or yourself or of reality to actually have that POV. But it is nice you are on record, just in case you go mad.

The schizophrenic might plead insanity true, but it is a defense that is seldom successfully used since the law was changed when Hinkley attempted to asassinate Reagan. I think this was a bad change in the law myself. I think the ground you are standing on is based on your assumption that evil is a matter of choice. Perhaps we will have another discussion at another time that concerns comorbid conditions.

That is the crux of our discussion I think. It comes down to whether or not the prepetrator is aware of what he/she is doing. Madness would mitigate punishment and badness (as long was we were able to establish a decision to be bad) would not. Your contention that it is important to separate them is probably at the root of how we decide whether or not our society is just. If we do not separate them this way do you feel that this would undermine our very system of justice? I think you have almost persuaded me -- given what we know today of madness and badness.

A schizophrenic having a psychotic episode may not know that when she drowns her children she is not saving their souls and sending them to heaven. It makes mighty sense to prevent her from committing such an act again, but she has a genetic disease. Without the disease, she would not have killed. But because what she did was "monstrous" is she therefore a monster? And if you do view her as a monster do you think she should be executed? If evil behavior is the result of a disease, how to we separate the disease from the evil. How do we parse responsibility? I propose that we need to punish. It is within us to exact revenge. This desire is natural.

I see sadness as an emotional state and depression as a condition or illness. Many people who are depressed don't like to see their condition characterized as mental illness because of the stigma attached, but it is. To me grief is a process which has been described many times as having certain emotional attitudes that follow a usual course. Getting stuck in grief is depression.

I believe evil people most often know that society and the law consider what they are doing is wrong. I think however that some of them might reduce that problem to a mere difference of opinion. Could it be possible that some people simply lack all capacity to internalize moral teaching? I think our differences may revolve around the words excuse and punishment. I don't think to understand has to mean to excuse. For instance, if your child is impulsive due to a disorder you would still need to make certain actions had consequences, but you might understand and forgive (not excuse!) because of the disorder. I am thinking here of the child of a friend of mine. I am virtually certain that unless his behavior is altered this child will grow up to be very dangerous indeed. My friend needs to figure out how to penalize but still love. But that is probably another thread altogether.

Great reverse! This has been a stimulating and cordial discussion. I look forward to seeing your model.

[quote name=syntax252 But' date=' regardless of why it is easier for some people to kill, isn't the fact that it is easier for them to kill enough reason to get them off the streets and into a secure place where they can't? I absolutely agree with you on getting them to a secure place. Our problem is indeed that we let them out sometimes to do it again. Of course I doubt that murder is the crime with the highest recidivism but its consequences are entirely permanent. What constitutes a secure place is worth considering. There are some people so dangerous that they will murder their fellow inmates and guards. We can argue that the guards are paid (not very well) to take this risk but their fellow inmates are not.

Not understanding your last sentence here. Feel free to PM me if you wish to keep it out of this thread.

Neither does sociopathy. People kill people. However to ignore what might be the basic cause is foolish. If people kill people because they have some sort of killer genes, how is this their fault? Take my dog: He looks at cats as prey. After six years of training I have finally taught him to ignore cats while he is on leash. He has been trained (programmed) to the extent that he will not even look at cats. All bets are off when he is free. In other words, in a controlled situation, he will not chase cats. But off leash, even if he killed a cat I would be foolish to turn around and execute him for it. 'Tis his nature. It is odd to me that people who are eager to say so much behavior is heritable don't like to examine the possibility that killers kill because it's their nature.

Actually, Lance isn't totally off the wall here. Ted Bundy escaped from a jail in Colorado and went on to kill several people. Escaping from prison is harder however. While Bundy was appealing his death sentence, he provided profilers with examples of thinking and behavior that they still use today to peg guys like him.

Hi Sandi, I missed this reply when you first posted it. You're right. The experiment would have been much more definitive if it had been constructed as you propose.

I don't think there is such a thing as tears of unmixed joy. I think if there are tears there is also either current sadness or the memory of sadness. Parents who cry at the children's weddings may be happy but also grieving a little bit that they no longer have their baby' date=' that time passed so fast, or that they certainly would have selected another son/daughter-in-law. (Listen to the song "Sunrise, Sunset" from [i']Fiddler on the Roof[/i].)I know if my daughter married I would certainly feel great trepidation. So many things can go wrong in a marriage. I think people who get married fall into one of three categories: The Young, The Foolish, and The Courageous. Sorry to sound so cynical.

But what if the perp just couldn't help it. Newtonian, I would be interested in your view on the following odd but footnoted article I found by googling the words molester, heritable, and genetic: http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~mwahn/bornevil.html