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Not exactly a wide population sample there...and also a circular argument. but entertaining none the less. If all tigers (and in fact most animals) pace in a very confined space...then it could be called the animals "natural" reaction to that situation. If however a tiger smuggled in a cake with a file hidden inside, and started filing the bars...that would mean it was time to get the tiger a bigger cage (with the extra money a "file using tiger" would bring in - from all the extra Zoo customers).

And does that include chemical interactions and Proton, Neutron, Electron interactions...etc? Gravitational interactions.. All to be considered "natural" phenomena?

How are you using the word “Natural” In the ancient sense of the word…or in the more recent “biological” usage?

yes...in the pure sense. no.. in the common usage. This is quite a sophisticated area of Philosophy we are discussing here. If you do a bit of research you will see what I mean. How about talking to the point exactly. Man…like the animals in many respects.. Lives,eats,grows,fights,mates,dies. Unlike many animals in many respects.. Excessively complex verbal communication, Excessively complex use of tools, to reform surroundings to advantage. Excessively complex use of stratagems ,to defer instant reward for latter gain. What unnatural aspect of mankind provided these extremes.. Or are these behaviors simply the extreme demonstrations of natural behaviors.

Or a person who is tall/short or fat/thin or lighting conditions that are bright/dark. I like your concept.... But it is precluded by the way the English language works..

My point is simpler than that. You are either random or you a pattern. If no example of “true” randomness can be found, Then, all things…you ..me…the plants, animals, planets, galaxies …all must be following a pattern. Nature is that pattern.

And yet you cant get past the fact that the terror of the world (Atomic missiles) can call Uncle Albert …well, Uncle Albert. Japan got the brunt of it.. countries this very day are invaded to preempt it. That is quite an EVIL legacy. (and my momma said that evil is as evil does).

Thanks guys. That’s what I thought. just checking.

How do you guys create a random number? ..and ensure that a number is truly random. By that I mean for example: a set of dice should be predictable if all the physical variables are calculated. So that would make dice not truly random.

I get totally where he is coming from. either reality is a big complex predictable mechanism with some predefined purpose...or it has at it's heart "random" operations... you cant have it both ways. or maybe you can?

I like to over simplify it this way. My computer can go flakey for reasons of hardware or software. Usually it’s the software flaking out (coping with tasks it wasn’t designed to handle).

From what I can tell, It all revolves around the concept known as “randomness”. If all things are like a gigantic complex machine, with each part calculate able, then it follows that “we” must be natural. However, if there is such a thing as “true randomness”, then some of our behavior, at least in theory, might be counter to the objective of said complex machine.

Good point. Collectors are an interesting market. Usually the desire for the second sword would be less, and the desire for a third sword would be even less, and so on…. Why?... because most of the needs and wants should be met by the first sword. So, a possible explanation to "collector behavior" may be in correctly identifying the need. The sword may simply be a false lead.

Really... The sexual content of snooker seems more to be one of penetration and aggression - except the spear is now a stick and the animal is now a ball. Don't get me started on the "getting your balls down a hole before another male does" part of snooker.

Bang for your buck. Hi, I have just been studying economic theory. Long story but “supply” and “demand” feature quite a lot. Almost a “black art” according to some. Funny thing… demand seems to be mostly psychological. Sure part of it is “need” but part of it is merely “want”. Sometimes consumers seem to act illogically. That is until you think about it on the “bang for you buck” level. If a situation can fire up pleasant brain chemicals.. you will move towards it. Can it possibly be that simple? No, it’s way too easy. Thoughts.?

Hi Guys. Hi B. is this thread still going? wow! Oh well, keep up the good work...it all seems to be going very well.

Did you have to ride the short bus to school? if you did...I think that qualifies you as "special" kidding...... the big problem with going outside convention , is that everyone operating inside convention has to adjust. like say for example if you decided that the red traffic signal seemed like a more sensible color to go through than the green one ...

Yep… If I have any off the wall ideas I usually like to post them …not so I can be credited with them if they prove correct ..but just in case someone is working away in a lab somewhere and just needs one small missing piece to a puzzle (that my obscure observation may enable them to connect).

LED’s are way cool. I’m a bit rusty but I think this is how it goes… Yea.. sometimes when you put them in series…one can glow brighter than the other…unless they are made at exactly the same time by the same manufacturer. You can put only a small amount of electricity into an led and it will glow only slightly…or if you put more electricity in.. it will glow much more intensely. You can overdo it…and then you will kill it. Basically use the V= I x R equation to figure out what you need. V = volts I = current …usually measured in milliamps…(that’s amps divided by a thousand…. because a whole amp is waaay too much to use). R = resistance usually measured in Ohms. Now remember this equation was made up ages before LEDS even existed ..so they might use the word resistance to describe a similar property of LED’s but not exactly the same property as the actual resistive wire used at the start of electronics. Get your twelve volt output on your computer power supply So V = 12 And read the specs on the led to see how much current you need. It might say 120mA… (times that by 1000 to get Amps). So V = I x R Divide both sides by I So V/I = R So 12V divided by 0.120A equals the resistor you need.

"a - Hem!" Evolution can be viewed as the path over time of the whole system..not just that of the organisims that habit this patrticular lump of iron we call home. (the total integration of it all seems to escape some people).

What gets me, is how people put it all down to the "simple" laws of physics… Which proves what a bunch of chimps we all are. There is nothing simple about the laws of physics…they are friggin genius…and pure art. The brilliance contained within the so called “simple” laws of physics is so far above “design”..well, so far, that “design” deserves no mention at all.

Grief! Define intelligent. Are we talking manipulation with “end” goal in mind.? How can we use the term “end” when "time" is one of the ingredients in the mix.

No, I don’t think there is any problem with thinking outside the box. Of course two things come about. Firstly you have to be prepared to take responsibility for any issues you create by this alternative approach. Secondly, you have to prove to all, that you are quite capable of thinking inside the box (and twice as good at it as anybody else) and that your choice to step outside convention is both deliberate and well considered.

Depends on the severity of the problem. Small issues written down and considered can be cathartic. Big ones….better to get an external pov.