pears

I haven't made up my mind. I just haven't seen evidence. I guess if you can't provide any that tells me something. But that is about sexual attraction. There is a measurable physiological response there. In males it's particularly obvious. Ok so there is empirical evidence in this thread for gender identity? Great. I'll go through in more detail and find it. I do empathize with those who feel distress at their sexed bodies. But what I'm looking for is evidence for innate 'gender identity' that we can be sure exists like hands and hearts exist. I'll go through the thread again to find it.

How you answer that question also depends on your prior beliefs. If you believe the terms male and female are defined by your sex characteristics then you would answer no because you can see what sex you are. I can understand gender/sex dysphoria as a concept but not innate gender identity. It sounds like pseudoscience to me because I don't see how it can be tested for. Because this is a science forum so there must be a good basis for such an idea. If I rocked up and stated I have a soul because I feel like I have one I'd be torn to shreds. Change my mind. With scientific evidence.

I assume I am my sexed body. A question like that could determine whether one feels at odds with their sexed body. But does a feeling of distress at ones sexed body mean that an innate gender identity is a tangible thing? Zapatos stated that gender identity is a fixed immutable tangible thing like a physical body part.

Autistic traits are pretty clearly defined and testable. What is the definition of gender or gender identity? How do I know whether I am cis or trans. What are the specific tests?

What do you mean by there seems to be a genetic component to gender identity? Have the genes for it been identified? What are they? What do you mean by gender? Do you mean sex characteristics?

You mean gender identity? I don't believe in gender identity. I haven't seen any good definition of it or any empirical evidence for it. The word gender on its own used to be a polite term for sex category.

How do you know gender identity is there at birth?

If size, strength and muscle mass is taken into account then I don't have a problem with that. Going by sex (not gender) assigned at birth is another, simpler way of achieving a similar outcome.

Grouping by sex you mean? Well I guess you could argue it's simpler. Men who've been through puberty generally have more muscle mass than women as well as being simply bigger. Absolute fairness in sports sounds incredibly hard to achieve. Seems like you could end up with a lot of categories.

Ah ok, thanks for the summary Down with women's sports!! Apologies. You're right I shouldn't jump in on the end of an old thread without reading it all. I did read a fair chunk, then got tired and just posted. I find the whole subject a bit depressing sometimes and just vented.

You're right. You can never make sport truly fair. Then let's remove all attempts to level the playing field. We shouldn't discriminate older ages from children's sports and men competing with women.

Is it? So we have to wait and see?

I haven't read all of this thread but I've read enough of it to feel quite sad. I thought men and women's sports are separated in order to make competitive sports fair. The discussion over what is the definition of a man or a woman is highly confusing. I thought a science forum would be able to give greater clarity. We may as well just get rid of those categories altogether if they are so hard to define. The fact that someone can say they identify as a woman and yet be physically much more like a man than a woman and still get to compete in women's sports means you may as well just get rid of women's sports.

12 years isn't long. I can't say I feel too hopeful.

I just read a similar story on this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45775309 It's very worrying. I'd be interested to see what people here think of this.