Is there a sound reason for refusing to help too much with homework?

[Rasher Null]

Sure, we are broadening the topic out to learning and assesment in general.

 

Even if long courses do provide feedback to students ontheir general progress, their existence in the form of take_long_course --> get grade from FAIL to BRILLIANT, means they are completely inferior to the stepper-modular system.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Rasher Null

[swansont]

Sure, we are broadening the topic out to learning and assesment in general.

 

Even if long courses do provide feedback to students ontheir general progress, their existence in the form of take_long_course --> get grade from FAIL to BRILLIANT, means they are completely inferior to the stepper-modular system.

Can you give an example of a long course like this?

[Rasher Null]

Most degree courses.

[swansont]

Most degree courses.

None of the courses I have ever taken lasted more than a semester, nor have I run across any in other disciplines. e.g. you take General Physics I one term, and then General physics II the next (Physics 211 and 212, in the numbering system of my alma mater). E&M I, and then E&M II. Calc I, and then Calc II. All separate courses. The only thing that was multi-year was the degree itself, which is not graded. Which is why I asked the question.

[Rasher Null]

I see... UK degrees are overall graded, while US degrees have a portfolio of large scale modules. The latter are usually averaged though to form a single GPA. That is my understanding.

 

For stepper modules, I would envisage a course length measured in days for maximum effectiveness- a month at most.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Rasher Null

[CharonY]

In the US it is is pretty much the same system as in the UK, each semester you take your respective courses (that may be the prerequisite for others) and get graded on them individually. The GPA is based on the total grade points divided by the credit hours. I have not seen anything like large scale modules that you describe.

[Rasher Null]

For me, the point is that the education system is squarely aimed at grading, rather than learning, as it shuns both small scale modularization and insistence on mastery before moving on. The education system has always been most useful to those who emerge as "winners" with top grades. The rest are there to make this group look good.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Rasher Null

[StringJunky]

For me, the point is that the education system is squarely aimed at grading, rather than learning, as it shuns both small scale modularization and insistence on mastery before moving on. The education system has always been most useful to those who emerge as "winners" with top grades. The rest are there to make this group look good.

Now you getting to the point. The system is about grading; how else is it to measure that you have learned what is required?

[CharonY]

For me, the point is that the education system is squarely aimed at grading, rather than learning, as it shuns both small scale modularization and insistence on mastery before moving on. The education system has always been most useful to those who emerge as "winners" with top grades. The rest are there to make this group look good.

 

Do you propose more exams then to track progress? And what do you mean with the mastery part? Do you mean one should move on before understanding a concept? Also, why should it matter what grades others get?

[StringJunky]

 

Also, why should it matter what grades others get?

Could it not determine whether you get into xyz university? Where you are in the grading pile may determine if you make that year's minimum grade.

Edited November 1, 2016 by StringJunky

[John Cuthber]

Have you heard of Catch 22?

Yes, I have heard of it. Would you like to explain why you think it is relevant?

 

In the mean time re "Is there a sound reason for refusing to help too much with homework?".

Yes there is. The definition of "too much" is the reason why you shouldn't do it.

[Rasher Null]

Now you getting to the point. The system is about grading; how else is it to measure that you have learned what is required?

By having only pass or fail as stepper module outcomes, with a pass being a very high score achieved at the module test - let's say 90%, for the sake of this discussion. If you don't get 90% you can restudy/retake. Remember that stepper modules are short, and retaking is very common. If it seems to a student that she cannot achieve 90% , despite restudying/retaking, then she should cease studying that line of modules, and choose something else. If she passes then she can go on to the next module in the series, if there is one. So I am advocating learning and testing, but in a solid way. Nobody should progress if they are still weak. Some students will progress further and faster of course, and some less so, but at least all learning will be solid. It is better to spend a long time learning basic calculus thoroughly say, than to spend a long time not really doing very well at more advanced calculus.

 

why should it matter what grades others get?

 

What matters is if you are being forced along a path of study too quickly.

 

Yes, I have heard of it. Would you like to explain why you think it is relevant?

 

In the mean time re "Is there a sound reason for refusing to help too much with homework?".

Yes there is. The definition of "too much" is the reason why you shouldn't do it.

 

My catch22 comment was wrt to Strange's statement "They are more likely to understand if they do it themselves." Clearly there is some circularity there ... you can't understand until you do it ... you can't do it until you understand.

 

As for my sort of tautologicalish use of "too much" ... guilty as charged , but on the other hand most folk seem to know the intended meaning ...

Edited November 1, 2016 by Rasher Null

[iNow]

Not casting any specific or direct aspersions, but as more of a meta comment... this thread sure reads an awful lot like trolling.

[StringJunky]

Not casting any specific or direct aspersions, but as more of a meta comment... this thread sure reads an awful lot like trolling.

No, I think he's just having initial problems trying to get across what he's thinking; what his issue is.

[iNow]

That's fair

[John Cuthber]

 

 

My catch22 comment was wrt to Strange's statement "They are more likely to understand if they do it themselves." Clearly there is some circularity there ... you can't understand until you do it ... you can't do it until you understand.

 

As for my sort of tautologicalish use of "too much" ... guilty as charged , but on the other hand most folk seem to know the intended meaning ...

Giving someone the answer is "too much": If I tell you the answer you won't learn. And the real problem is you are wrong.

It's possible- often necessary- to understand it before you do it.

 

Showing them how to get the answer is appropriate help.

It's as if you are the only one who doesn't understand the meaning.

[Rasher Null]

Not casting any specific or direct aspersions, but as more of a meta comment... this thread sure reads an awful lot like trolling.

 

Well the truth is I am very interested in education and the education system and willing to discuss these matters at a drop of a hat. Most people accept the nature and functioning of the education system as if it is as natural as the weather, but I have invested some time and energy thinking about it, and this is a very unusual way to spend one's time it seems.

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

Can we all please return to the topic of the OP? Discussion about the wider education system do not belong in this thread.