Trump protestors

[Delta1212]

Cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug.

[tar]

John Cuthber,

 

Absolutely, I think there is good reason for my family to be democrat. But I love my wife, and temper my opinions to allow her to be right, as well. And I have contrary ideas to pure liberalism. There is a workability factor that always needs to be sewn in to any idealistic stance. I did not want Trump, and thought he was not presidential. Had some ideas that were along the lines that I think, but mostly seemed to me, to be a salesman and a negotiator, that did not have my interests in mind. I was in the never Trump camp, during the primaries, as some here were in the Sanders camp during the primary and said some things negative about Clinton, to frame Sanders as the better choice. After looking at all the Republicans, I chose Kasich as the most likely to carry my thinking into the presidency. I was hoping for faithless delegates at the convention that would cause a second unassigned vote that would create a situation where somehow, contrary to the rules, Kasich would be selected, even though he had only won a state and not the required number. Like everybody is hoping now, that the recounts will find Hilary is the winner, or short of that, that electors will be faithless to the population of their state, and vote instead for the popular choice of the nation as a whole.

 

I understand the world and religion and politics and human relations, according to my two 90 10 rules. The top 10 percent of the country in capability and trustworthiness run the world, and should run the world, because they are in the top 10 percent in capability and trustworthiness. The other 90 percent are the majority and the world should be run with their interests in mind. And then there is my other 90 10 rule, established as a rough estimate of people's character, based on 60 plus years of interacting with people at home, on the street, in school and church, and in the Army in various states and in Germany, and around the world through business trips to Japan and vacations here and there. This rule says that 90 percent of people are good, follow the laws and will help you when you are in trouble, 10 percent are questionable, and less than a percent are downright evil.

 

Civilization needs to both advance and be maintained. It is incumbent upon all in the top 10 percent in the capability and trustworthiness breakdown, to strive to not be in the questionable 10 percent in the character break down. As it is incumbent upon the majority, or the masses, to also strive to be in the 90 percent good character basket and not fall into the questionable 10 percent ranks.

 

As it all logically breaks down though, there are some impossibilities and some likelihoods. It is impossible, numbers-wise for the majority of people in the world, to be questionable in character, if you have already figured that 90 percent are good. And it is impossible to expect that the will of the majority would automatically align with the will of the top ten percent. That is, if you are among the elite and know Latin, you can determine who else is in the top 10 percent of the capability category, but you are likely to be wrong, if you think the majority are impressed or even care.

 

Trump won, because of the 90 percent, not in the top 10 percent of capability and trustworthiness. He campaigned to get their votes. Hilary campaigned to get the top 10 percent and their automatic followers among the 90 percent. Some districts go automatically for the democrat. The bottom 90 pecent automatically follow the top 10 in the cities, and among minorities. But the lower 90 percent in capability have to logically be composed, if you accept my premises, of 90 percent good people. Concluding that mathematically you have to spread your expectation of deplorable people out amongst the top 10 percent and the bottom 90, and you have to spread your expectation of good people out, amongst your party and the other. In any case, you are more likely to run into good people than bad, and you are more likely to run into people that are below you in capability and trustworthiness, if you are high in those categories. Given my perceived evaluation of the readers and contributors on this board, I would say that nearly all here, are in the top 10 percent in capability and trustworthiness. I also have faith that nearly 100 percent are also in the good character group, because the rules of the board screen out the questionables.

 

So a debate here is amongst elites. And majority rule in the populace is good in the democratic sense, but bad for the queen of France during the French revolution.

 

Regards, TAR

to my wife, my theories and divisions of the sphere, and opinions are just opinions and unimportant pursuits

The important things are, are the bills getting paid, is the house clean and operational and well maintained, and what is for dinner.

Edited November 27, 2016 by tar

[Ten oz]

Trump won, because of the 90 percent, not in the top 10 percent of capability and trustworthiness. He campaigned to get their votes. Hilary campaigned to get the top 10 percent and their automatic followers among the 90 percent. Some districts go automatically for the democrat. The bottom 90 pecent automatically follow the top 10 in the cities, and among minorities. But the lower 90 percent in capability have to logically be composed, if you accept my premises, of 90 percent good people. Concluding that mathematically you have to spread your expectation of deplorable people out amongst the top 10 percent and the bottom 90, and you have to spread your expectation of good people out, amongst your party and the other. In any case, you are more likely to run into good people than bad, and you are more likely to run into people that are below you in capability and trustworthiness, if you are high in those categories. Given my perceived evaluation of the readers and contributors on this board, I would say that nearly all here, are in the top 10 percent in capability and trustworthiness. I also have faith that nearly 100 percent are also in the good character group, because the rules of the board screen out the questionables.

 

So a debate here is amongst elites. And majority rule in the populace is good in the democratic sense, but bad for the queen of France during the French revolution.

 

Regards, TAR

You do realize that Hillary Clinton won atleast 2.2 million more votes right? The margin for Trump's electoral victory is about 100k votes. The 90% vs whatever you are talking about doesn't match reality.

 

Yes, some places are automatic wins for Democrats. Other places are automatic wins for Republicans. Are you under the impression that Republicans don't automatically get AL, MS, LA, GA, WV, ID, UT, WY, MT, ND, SD, and etc, etc, etc.

 

You have previous said Trump was fit to be president. Said you would vote for him. Admitted he was a bigot. Now that he has won by the slimist margins this country has probably ever seen in its history you are stumbling over yourself to defend him. It is a very dangerous game Trump supporters are playing. In my opinion many voted for Trump out of spite, purely to antagonize, assuming he'd lose. It is irresponsible in my opinion. Elections aren't meant to be punitive.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

You misunderstand the implications of my theories. They far from contradict reality, they explain it. The elite of the left use populace opinion and fear to get the vote of the lower 90 percent (you are going to get lynched, deported, bullied, sexually molested, sent into the street if the republicans get control.) Trump used fear of (rape and crime and drugs at the hands of Mexican gangs, and inner city gangs and ISIS, and the corrupt swamp in Washington led by the Clinton elite) to rally his supporters.

 

The debate earlier about the electoral college, was defined I think best by the federalist paper that reasoned the electoral college should be in place to have recourse when the populace picks a demagogue. Then popular vote is likely to pick the wrong guy or girl, if not properly guided by the elite. You have to take an average between what is good for the elite and good for the masses, as you have to form an opinion as to whether the people smarter than you, are on your side, or against you.

 

People smarter than you are, can fool you more easily, then people on your level. That is one of the reasons I liked Bush. He was on my level. Clinton was above my level and I knew he could fool me, and I didn't trust him. Trump is above my level, but pretends to be below, and has thus fooled me into thinking that he will operate in a straight forward, understandable fashion. He has built a billion dollar empire, and has a loyal cadre around him, I think there is a good chance he is capable and trustworthy and will run the world in a manner beneficial to Americans. Hilary on the other hand is also smarter than me, but I distrust her in the same manner and for the same reasons as I distrusted her husband. I like to think that the elite are on my side. I side with the billionaires and corporate magnates and leaders of business and industry, military and government, educational institutions and all the institutions that make my country great. During the aftermath of 9/11 the Javits center was headquarters for the effort to recover. There were police and security experts from all over the country, come to protect the city and put us back together A whole convention center full of the best of the best. I support these people, and they will be the backbone of the country whether Hilary is president or Trump is president. We are still America. From the poorest to the richest, most conservative to most liberal, weakest to strongest, we are on the same team.

 

You will not be able to convince me that I am deplorable, or that half of Trump's supporters are deplorable, because I know some of them and know they are far from deplorable. One letter threatening a mosque, does not define either me, my country or Trump.

 

Regards TAR

Edited November 27, 2016 by tar

[Delta1212]

[My theories] far from contradict reality, they explain it.

 

This site has taught me to treat any sentence expressing this particular sentiment with extreme skepticism.

[tar]

After Sandy, crews from all over the Midwest came to string wire and rebuild our electrical distribution system. I thanked a crew from Ohio or Indiana that got us back up after 8 days, brought them out some root beer and offered our bathroom...that is America. I didn't ask them their political party.

[John Cuthber]

It is a very dangerous game Trump supporters are playing. In my opinion many voted for Trump out of spite, purely to antagonize, assuming he'd lose. It is irresponsible in my opinion. Elections aren't meant to be punitive.

All the more embarrassing because the Brexiteers did it a few months earlier.

[tar]

This site has taught me to treat any sentence expressing this particular sentiment with extreme skepticism.

Understood,

 

But you have to admit that the people below you in intelligence are below you in intelligence, and this says zero about their character.

 

Regards, TAR

[Delta1212]

Understood,

 

But you have to admit that the people below you in intelligence are below you in intelligence, and this says zero about their character.

 

Regards, TAR

I do realize that. It also applies in the other direction.

[John Cuthber]

...

 

You will not be able to convince me that I am deplorable, or that half of Trump's supporters are deplorable, because I know some of them and know they are far from deplorable. One letter threatening a mosque, does not define either me, my country or Trump.

 

Regards TAR

I didn't say they were deplorable (well, some are) most of them have been duped.

[Ten oz]

Ten Oz,

 

You misunderstand the implications of my theories. They far from contradict reality, they explain it. The elite of the left use populace opinion and fear to get the vote of the lower 90 percent (you are going to get lynched, deported, bullied, sexually molested, sent into the street if the republicans get control.) Trump used fear of (rape and crime and drugs at the hands of Mexican gangs, and inner city gangs and ISIS, and the corrupt swamp in Washington led by the Clinton elite) to rally his supporters.

You said that Trump was dangerous. You said you would not support Trump. Now you are and blaming liberal elites for arguing the same points you once made. You made argurments against Trump based on his character, lack of competence, and divisiveness. It is normal for a person to change there mind but typically they have some humility when they do. In your case you were arguing from a position of moral high ground then (when you were anti Trump) and are still arguing from the same place now. It seems like you just want what you want and will post whatever to justify it.

Posted by tar on 11 February 2016 - 11:44 AM in Politics

 

not trump by the way

 

he is suited for reality TV, and can fire up a crowd, but I don't want him as my representative to the world

 

Great Britain does not even want him in their country. That would be highly problematic for him to be in charge of the U.S. Embassy there.

 

Posted by tar on 3 February 2016 - 07:17 AM in Politics

Willie71,

 

He is not calling me out. I cringed the same as any other reasonable person when Cruz said he would carpet bomb ISIS, or Trump said he would keep out Muslims until we could figure out what is going on, or Hilary answered that she is proud to be the enemy of the drug companies, the republicans and the Iranians, or when Sanders says he is going to give everybody health care and college and make the superrich pay for it through a political revolution.

 

But you figure if Cruz says it, I believe it.

You figure if Trump says it, I believe it.

You figure if Hilary says it, I must disagree with it.

You figure if Sanders says it, I must disagree with it.

 

If in order to be a republican I must agree with everything a republican ever said or did, then I am not a republican.

If to be a republican I have to disagree with everything a democrat ever did, I am not a republican.

 

Posted by tar on 2 February 2016 - 11:15 AM in Politics

 

I am not going to vote for Rubio when the republican primary comes to my town in NJ. I am not going to vote for Trump or Cruz or the teaparty. Perhaps Kasich or Paul. If I was a democrat I would not have a choice. The big votes on both the democrat side and the republican side were for ideals and people I do not completely agree with. Some things good, some things bad. Some things unrealistic, some things possible but not really workable without huge unintended consequences. Like you can't keep a Muslim from coming into the country, and you can't have republicans, the drug companies and the Iranians as enemies if you are to be the president of the United States.

 

Posted by tar on 27 January 2016 - 09:05 AM in Politics

 

Right now the country is split really badly and huge populace movements are lining up behind Trump and Sanders. Both of those individuals are not who I would like to see as president. Bernie way too socialist, talking about revolution and the destruction of the billionaire class, and Donald way too full of himself and unthoughtful, like a petulant child, who I would be very uncomfortable giving the nuclear codes to.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

Well I understand, that by supporting Trump, I may be not doing my part to avoid bad situations that might develop under his watch, like the head of Liberty university becoming education secretary, and then seeing creationism taught on equal footing with evolution and such other foolishness or anti-American and anti progress situations. But high moral ground was not available in this election. I equally do not want to see the normalization of police killings and the demonization of all the average joes in the county. I am trying to look out for everybody and everybody's rights. That includes the rights of billionaires and farmers, factory workers and fireman and police officers.

 

It is unfortunate for the elite that there are these other 90 percent hanging around, doing goofy stuff, believing in God, sending people in Nigeria a thousand dollars to secure the inheritance of a long lost relative...all these dupable folk. Well I came to the conclusion that I should do what I can to use my superior intelligence to assist who ever I can. Put my capabilities at everyone's disposal, but not try and dupe anyone, or control anyone, or make myself believe I am morally superior to someone just because I am bright...or used to be, I am not as sharp as I once was.

 

My disparaging of Trump during the primaries was heart felt. My support of him now is hopeful. I see the dangers, I see the impossible situations. There is no way he can separate himself from his empire. The sec service is renting a whole floor of Trump tower to protect him as they would Obama, but guess who the landlord is? There is little he could do, that would not eventually find its way back to touch his empire. Bannon is really smart, and he also promoted incredibly stupid conspiracy theories. I don't know why he did these things. Like Hilary, he may say one thing in public, and another behind closed doors.

 

Everything I say to you guys is out in the open, except for an occasional PM. My portrayal of a Democrat, a Republican, an Independent and a Trump supporter, had two points, one to curry favor with my peers (you guys) by characterizing the four groups in the manner I thought you guys would see it, and two, to warn you guys against bias and mischaracterization, because all four pictures were of the exact same guy, me.

 

At this point, in terms of protests against Trump, the only purpose is to hope against hope that there is a peaceful, lawful way to reverse the election and discover it was fraudulent and belongs to Hilary, or to hope against hope, that there will be faithless electors that would choose Hilary, or throw the thing into the house, where someone other than Trump could emerge...but the most likely outcome at this point, barring the unexpected, is that Trump is our president elect, and the choice of the states that compose our union, so the hope against hope outcomes would be contrary the wishes of these folks, duped or not. So a reversal would be disenfranchising them, and going contrary our peaceful way of choosing leaders.

 

If you wish to resort to unpeaceful ways, you will be arrested for it, same as if Hilary winds up winning the recounts, any treason ,on the part of Trump supporters, will be dealt with directly and harshly, illegal stuff is still illegal. But Hilary can only help in the process, I think. I read the deadline to file in Wisconsin was the 25th and Stein started the process late on the 25th. Hilary did not join the effort until the 26th, so I don't know if she can file now, she missed the deadline. She can only assist and donate her lawyers and ground team to watch stuff. Trump is still our president elect at the moment.

Regards, TAR

Edited November 27, 2016 by tar

[John Cuthber]

"But high moral ground was not available in this election."

Yes it was- just don't vote for Trump.

" I equally do not want to see the normalization of police killings and the demonization of all the average joes in the county. "
OK, that's easy- don't vote for Trump.

"I am trying to look out for everybody and everybody's rights. "

Well, have a look at Trump's record on human rights- notably women and ethic minorities.

The moral ground is, once again, quite easy to find. Don't vote for Trump.

 

"It is unfortunate for the elite that there are these other 90 percent hanging around, doing goofy stuff, believing in God, sending people in Nigeria a thousand dollars to secure the inheritance of a long lost relative...all these dupable folk."
On the contrary, it's very useful for the elite who con a large fraction of the 90% into voting for them.

 

 

"Well I came to the conclusion that I should do what I can to use my superior intelligence to assist who ever I can. Put my capabilities at everyone's disposal, but not try and dupe anyone, or control anyone, or make myself believe I am morally superior to someone just because I am bright...or used to be, I am not as sharp as I once was."
Then how come you keep supporting the Republicans in general and Trump in particular?

 

"Like Hilary, he may say one thing in public, and another behind closed doors."

A bit like Trump then?

[tar]

John Cuthber,

 

I wanted to vote Kasich, but I did not see how to complete a write-in, and would have had to ask for assistance and it would have been a wasted vote anyway and hold up the line and reveal I was not voting for either. I knew Hilary was going to win New Jersey, anyway, so my Trump vote was toothless. I voted the republican line, because I volunteer with Republicans that are on my town counsel and live with someone who was going to vote Trump because she doesn't like Hilary. I did not have a senatorial selection this year, but I voted for a republican rep in the house, to check Hilary if she got too socialist in agenda. AND may I remind you, I didn't have to tell you who I voted for. I tell you in the spirit of discussion to reveal my reasons so that people can understand the Trump movement, for more than just a populace movement...that there are people that see positive values in Trump and his proposals.

 

Like Brexit, it was mostly nationalists and xenophobes that voted for it, but that does not mean they were all dupes. Some I think, in fact most I think had an IQ of over 80. And some people just don't like globalization and giving their power away to the elite of Europe. As here, many do not like the PC crowds way of demonizing them. Like me, for instance.

 

Regards, TAR

but it brings up a good point as to what moral high ground consists of

that is another discussion, but I don't think the elite get to decide that on their own, the elite have to consult the 90 percent

Edited November 27, 2016 by tar

[Ten oz]

Ten Oz,

 

Well I understand, that by supporting Trump, I may be not doing my part to avoid bad situations that might develop under his watch, like the head of Liberty university becoming education secretary, and then seeing creationism taught on equal footing with evolution and such other foolishness or anti-American and anti progress situations. But high moral ground was not available in this election. I equally do not want to see the normalization of police killings and the demonization of all the average joes in the county. I am trying to look out for everybody and everybody's rights. That includes the rights of billionaires and farmers, factory workers and fireman and police officers.

As with crime broadly Police killings are down. More Police were killed per year in the 70's, 80's, and 90's than currently.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html

 

You are basically saying that you knowing voted for someone incompetent to be President because you are upset about something which is purely imagined. You'll trade away Education, the Environment, and National Security of this nation for a change in the buzz words used in Criminal Justice discussions.

 

My disparaging of Trump during the primaries was heart felt. My support of him now is hopeful. I see the dangers, I see the impossible situations. There is no way he can separate himself from his empire. The sec service is renting a whole floor of Trump tower to protect him as they would Obama, but guess who the landlord is? There is little he could do, that would not eventually find its way back to touch his empire. Bannon is really smart, and he also promoted incredibly stupid conspiracy theories. I don't know why he did these things. Like Hilary, he may say one thing in public, and another behind closed doors.

 

Everything I say to you guys is out in the open, except for an occasional PM. My portrayal of a Democrat, a Republican, an Independent and a Trump supporter, had two points, one to curry favor with my peers (you guys) by characterizing the four groups in the manner I thought you guys would see it, and two, to warn you guys against bias and mischaracterization, because all four pictures were of the exact same guy, me.

Implying that both sides do something or are imperfect always benefits the side which does things to the worst degree. Platitudes do not justify anything.

 

At this point, in terms of protests against Trump, the only purpose is to hope against hope that there is a peaceful, lawful way to reverse the election and discover it was fraudulent and belongs to Hilary, or to hope against hope, that there will be faithless electors that would choose Hilary, or throw the thing into the house, where someone other than Trump could emerge...but the most likely outcome at this point, barring the unexpected, is that Trump is our president elect, and the choice of the states that compose our union, so the hope against hope outcomes would be contrary the wishes of these folks, duped or not. So a reversal would be disenfranchising them, and going contrary our peaceful way of choosing leaders.

Is it for you to determine why others should be protesting and rank the value of that protest? In my opinion nothing good came from the Tea Party protests. It merely led to a bunch of climate change and evolution deniers getting elected into office. I can't think of a single useful policy change that resulted and yet I NEVER questioned whether they had the right to protest. You seem to be disagreeing with the very idea that people are entited to protest. As if after an election everyone is obligated to some standard of obedient followership of the President Elect until such time He or She has been in power long enough for their agenda to start rolling down hill and pick of momentum. That is not how it works. Trump must take the good (winning anelection) with the bad (majority of voters didn't want him). It is up to him to resolve. He will be everyones President and not merely the President for those inthe minority that voted for him.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Ten oz

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

I am aware of the statistics and I do not interpret them, as you do. I look directly at the causes of our problems. Lack of respect for police officers and tying their hands, makes it hard for them to control volatile situations, which is their charge. In a populace our first charge is to police ourselves, our second charge is to police our family and friends, our third charge is to make sure our companies and the organizations we are part of, are operating in a legal and ethical manner. The police and the courts and the army are on our side in these endeavors. Placing the institutions of our nation, the police and the law and the corporations and industry and finance, on the other side of some constructed moral divide, is not workable.

 

One can not both use the drop in crime to show how well we are doing and use the increase in gun violence to prove we need more anti-gun legislation.

 

A sensible person would not blame the increase in gang and drug violence in the cities, on Republicans. One should go directly to the people that have lead the cities in question. The mayor, the primarily democrat led policies and procedures, zoning and regulations. If attention was not paid to the economic development of certain neighborboods, it is the duty of the people that live in those neighborhoods, to make it work. To raise the chickens, tend the flocks, husband the orchards, build the cars, build the computers, or in some way, add value and make the place workable and attractive to business and people that would live and work there. There are adults that live in those neighborhoods, that are not working. Americans, with brains and brawn and good morals, that have a direct duty to serve themselves, their family, their friends their town, their state, and their country, if they are to be called Americans.

 

As to the popular vote. Yes Trump has a big problem with not having the popular mandate. He feels that it is unfair that people duped by democrats outnumber people that he was able to dupe, perhaps. I myself have sometimes wondered why democrats spend so much money to "get out the vote". It always seemed to me an obligation to vote. I was proud to cast my vote. I needed no urging. It always seemed to me, that such efforts were like electioneering, but done more than 50 feet from the polls. Such efforts, if led by democrats are usually targeted in the cities and the votes cast are usually for democrats. When other voters ask that people be made to prove their identity and citizenship when they vote, it is framed as xenophobic or racist to ask for such things. No, it is a desire to not have someone vote twice, or lie on a check box on a form and say they are a citizen when they are not, and dilute the power of my single, legal, vote as a citizen of the town, county, state and country for which my vote matters.

 

And, if you are following the federalist's reason for the electoral college, you will see that it is exactly to allow the elite to rule even when, or especially when the mob wants to take power behind a demagogue. So if you are to argue, that the children should not have skittles for super, just because they like skittles, and the parents have veto power over the desires of the children, to protect them, and do things in their best interest, then you are arguing two things. One that you are the parent, and two, that the populace is the child. Although I agree that the top 10 percent should rule, because they are the most capable, the ones with the most power and money and trustworthiness, charisma and talent and ability, I would point out, that then, popular rule is not founded on any workable principle. Also, you wind up having to argue that I am the child, and you are the adult, and that simply is not the case. My vote counts exactly the same as yours does.

 

If popular vote should be honored, so that each has power, then the assumption is, that we all are qualified to vote, and the general assumption is that anyone can be president of the U.S. Even a rich white boy from NYC.

 

Regards, TAR

 

I say that, because prior the election, my barber, an Italian and two of his clients, a white guy of unknown ethnic background and a black guy of unknown religion and ethnicity, liked Trump because he was like "us", and not a lawyer, and politician like Hilary.

Edited November 29, 2016 by tar

[Delta1212]

In what specific way are the police's hands tied, and how do they need to be untied in order to make things better?

[Ten oz]

@ tar, crime is down and Police being killed is down. This lack of respect you are carrying on about is reflected where? Show me a stat that reflects a loss of law and order. It seems to me that you simply do not like the language used in discussions about police and crime and that the results matter far less.

 

Why did you bring gun violence into this conversation? You used police safety concerns as a reason you voted for Trump. As a reason why you are willing to tolerate his dangerous policies on other issues. Don't try to bait me into a separate conversation. You said "I equally do not want to see the normalization of police killings and the demonization of all the average joes in the county. I am trying to look out for everybody and everybody's rights". So now you need to suppurt that nonsense. Show me where there is a "normalization of police killing". Because if you cannot than you basically voted against the better interest of your country for no reason other than willful ignorance.

[Delta1212]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/803567993036754944

[tar]

Delta,

 

I am not interested in following Trump's twitter feed. That is the first I ever even saw it.

 

However, I have told the story before of a time in my life that I was willing to die to protect my flag, but walked away because my orders were to not make trouble. Six or so Iranians burning our flag and stomping on it, at a carnival in Kaiserslaughtern Germany, while I was in the Army, and our hostages were in Iran.

 

You don't burn my flag, without showing disrespect, or hatred of me, my way of life and my country and countymen.

 

Ten Oz,

 

You guys keep saying I am un-American to vote for someone you disagree with, that will undo your policies and be a danger to America and American values. Well, one American value, would be that you should support me and my right to vote my conscious, and choose one candidate over the other. And I have an equal right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as any other citizen, and my values and will should in no way be subservient to the values and wills of a Syrian that lives in Syria, or a Mexican that lives in the United States, on the basis that to not give them equal rights, is somehow un-American.

 

Illegals have no voting rights in our country.

They have no obligation to follow our constitution, either, until they take an oath of citizenship. Nor do people that break our laws, as in felons, have a right to be specially cared for, by the society they have declared war on.

 

This, about me voting for a guy dangerous to America, is an opinion that I do not agree with, at this point. My feeling is that I voted for the lesser of two evils, and now, whoever wins the electoral college on the 19th, will be my president. With or without my objections. And I will wish either the best, and support my flag, and the constitution, here, and around the world, in either case. And I will continue to voice my objections to ideas and actions I feel are goofy or illogical, but that does not make me right, or make me wrong.

 

For instance, I am atheist, and my wife is not. It is not up to you, to say I made a bad decision to marry my wife. I love her none-the-less.

 

As I have close friends that are Republicans.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited November 29, 2016 by tar

[rangerx]

Again, Trump trounces on 1st Amendment rights. Where's the outrage? Mention the words "gun control", conservatives scream from the roof tops out about liberals taking their guns away.

 

"Stripped of citizenship" is as anti-American it gets. Yet another double standard rears it's ugly head for all to see.

Delta,

I am not interested in following Trump's twitter feed. That is the first I ever even saw it.

However, I have told the story before of time in my life that I was willing to die to protect my flag, but walked away because my orders were to not make trouble. Six or so Iranians burning our flag and stomping on it, at a carnival in Kaiserslaughtern Germany, while I was in the Army, and our hostages were in Iran.

You don't burn my flag, without showing disrespect, or hatred of me.

 

Now you are the anti-American.

It's an affront to your delicate ego to burn a flag, but turn your back on your leader's disrespect for the 1st Amendment.

 

On one hand, but never the other, Tar.

[tar]

It is also rather strange for people that have only bad things to say about America, and her people to call a citizen of America un-American. Call us anything else, but do not call us un-American. If we have pledged allegiance to this nation, we are her citizens. That cannot be undone, especially from the mouth of someone who either has not pledged allegiance, or does not understand the obligations that that pledge carries with it.

[Delta1212]

It is also rather strange for people that have only bad things to say about America, and her people to call a citizen of America un-American. Call us anything else, but do not call us un-American. If we have pledged allegiance to this nation, we are her citizens. That cannot be undone, especially from the mouth of someone who either has not pledged allegiance, or does not understand the obligations that that pledge carries with it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/803592091163119616

[tar]

Delta1212,

 

Would you die to protect my rights to vote for Trump?

 

Regards, TAR

[rangerx]

It is also rather strange for people that have only bad things to say about America, and her people to call a citizen of America un-American. Call us anything else, but do not call us un-American. If we have pledged allegiance to this nation, we are her citizens. That cannot be undone, especially from the mouth of someone who either has not pledged allegiance, or does not understand the obligations that that pledge carries with it.

 

Hogwash Tar.

 

Now you claim nobody anywhere has any right to criticize Americans when they are blatantly contradicting themselves.

 

Being dismissive of others rights is as un-American as it gets.