Trump protestors

[tar]

Would you object, if I listened to my President, on January 21st, whether it is Hilary or Trump, or Pence or Stein?

rangerx,

 

so why are you dismissive of my rights to object to someone burning my flag

 

I understand, that the burning of the flag is protected as a form of speech. I submit that the words that the burning of my flag, are saying to me, is that my way is bullcrap. And to those words, I take objection.

 

Regards, TAR

[Delta1212]

Delta1212,

 

Would you die to protect my rights to vote for Trump?

 

Regards, TAR

I would consider that a very basic freedom, yes. Why, did you think that I wouldn't?

 

What's the point of rights if you only defend them when they're exercised by people you agree with?

Would you object, if I listened to my President, on January 21st, whether it is Hilary or Trump, or Pence or Stein?

rangerx,

 

so why are you dismissive of my rights to object to someone burning my flag

 

I understand, that the burning of the flag is protected as a form of speech. I submit that the words that the burning of my flag, are saying to me, is that my way is bullcrap. And to those words, I take objection.

 

Regards, TAR

You have every right to object to people burning the flag.

 

You don't have the right to take away their citizenship in response, and one of the responsibility of citizenship that you mentioned is resistance to that kind of move by the government.

[rangerx]

No, but that's not what's in question here.

 

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but if you were true to your constitution, you would disagree but uphold the right to burn a flag AND to let your president elect say what he wants to say, even if it's wrong.

 

When someone is perceived to be wrong, it's right to speak out in protest.

You simply don't get it.

[tar]

Let's say for instance, that I don't like the idea of anal sex. I have a right to say that. I do not however have the right to go into someone else's bedroom and tell them what pieces of their anatomy should be involved with what pieces of their partner's anatomy.

 

Someone has a right to protest, and carry what-ever un-American message they want to carry. They can write curse words and threaten the president elect with all sorts of horrid things...accept they can't actually do it, or it would be illegal. What they say though, I have a right to object to, and I object to someone burning my flag. Whether they be American, Mexican or Iranian.

rangerx,

 

I absolutely get it. You don't take away someone's citizenship, because they speak. You take away someone's citizenship because they pledged alliegence to the flag, and then showed they were insincere, by burning it.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited November 29, 2016 by tar

[rangerx]

Someone has a right to protest, and carry what-ever un-American message they want to carry. They can write curse words and threaten the president elect with all sorts of horrid things...accept they can't actually do it, or it would be illegal. What they say though, I have a right to object to, and I object to someone burning my flag. Whether they be American, Mexican or Iranian.

 

Again, you've contradicted yourself in the same breath.

 

It's written in the constitution, that's why. To object is anti-American.

so why are you dismissive of my rights to object to someone burning my flag

 

 

[tar]

The only reason to burn a flag is to either show you disrespect it, or to show you love the freedom of speech it symbolizes so much, that you can burn it to show someone else's hypocrisy?

Edited November 29, 2016 by tar

[rangerx]

You claim gun control, protesting and a whole other bouquet of otherwise legal behavior or action is un-American, yet taking away citizenship for exercising one's right is somehow pro-American?

 

 

Dude.... you're walking the fascist line here.

Edited November 29, 2016 by rangerx

[Delta1212]

Let's say for instance, that I don't like the idea of anal sex. I have a right to say that. I do not however have the right to go into someone else's bedroom and tell them what pieces of their anatomy should be involved with what pieces of their partner's anatomy.

 

Someone has a right to protest, and carry what-ever un-American message they want to carry. They can write curse words and threaten the president elect with all sorts of horrid things...accept they can't actually do it, or it would be illegal. What they say though, I have a right to object to, and I object to someone burning my flag. Whether they be American, Mexican or Iranian.

rangerx,

 

I absolutely get it. You don't take away someone's citizenship, because they speak. You take away someone's citizenship because they pledged alliegence to the flag, and then showed they were insincere, by burning it.

 

Regards, TAR

I just lost all respect for you...

[tar]

how am I to tell when somebody is hitting me in the face because they hate me, or hitting me in the face because they think I am stupid, or hitting me in the face because they think I am a hypocrite?

[rangerx]

The only reason to burn a flag is to either show you disrespect it, or to show you love the freedom of speech it symbolizes so much, that you can burn it to show someone else's hypocrisy?

Don''t put this on me as though I'm a flag burner. In fact, when I raise the colors, I never let it touch the ground.

 

When I pull the halyard, I do so in the spirit for which it stands, not the way I interpret it.

 

Surely you can see the difference?

[tar]

I just lost all respect for you...

Sorry. I will just leave in disgrace then. I have no other defense of myself, but my reasoning and feelings.

 

Protests are perfectly OK. I don't however think people that burn the flag see how they are hurting the thing that gives them the right to burn it.

Don''t put this on me as though I'm a flag burner. In fact, when I raise the colors, I never let it touch the ground.

 

When I pull the halyard, I do so in the spirit for which it stands, not the way I interpret it.

 

Surely you can see the difference?

Surely and super surely I do.

 

 

Regards, TAR

[Delta1212]

Sorry. I will just leave in disgrace then. I have no other defense of myself, but my reasoning and feelings.

 

Protests are perfectly OK. I don't however think people that burn the flag see how they are hurting the thing that gives them the right to burn it.

Except it won't give them the right to burn it any longer if you take away their citizenship over that.

 

That's the point. Stripping someone of their citizenship because they burn the flag does more to diminish that flag than the burning of it does.

[rangerx]

 

Remember the little chat we had the other day? I've defended you before, defended you then but cannot defend you now.

 

In one line, you've singularly dismissed anything I favor of America. Stripping someone of what's good about them to make a point is demonic, not discourse.

 

I thought you could be reasonable, but now I'm left with the impression you're just anti-liberal trolling and a pro-conservative apologist. Period.

Edited November 29, 2016 by rangerx

[tar]

Delta1212,

 

Well wait...I think I just figured out my problem.

 

When "I" burned the flag in the 60s it was saying down with the establishment, down with the military industrial complex, up with love, up with civil rights, down with WAR.

 

Since then there was a constitutional battle and a supreme court determination that burning the flag was a form of speech, and such was protected under the 1st amendment. One's freedom of speech however, never protected and does not now protect the right to scream fire in a crowded theatre (not on fire)

 

So, if burning the flag, is now meaning up with the establishment, up with the military industrial complex, up with war, up with the constitution, I was not informed of the switch.

 

Regards, TAR

I apologize for the people all around me, that are good people, make this country, and might be more conservative than I am. Because they are citizens of my country, collect my bottles and cans, fix my roads, run my wires, run my airports, drive the trucks of commerce, run my schools and so on. They are good people, solid citizens.

maybe they are all un-American because of one way or another that they are not upholding some recent court ruling, but they are being completely American in voting for a guy that will appoint a judge that might interpret the constitution differently and more toward the way a conservative thought it was intended.

 

I am neither a constitutional lawyer, nor able to make a judgement on whether the constitution is a living document, or a static document, but if there is a disagreement between people on which way the constitution should be interpreted it does not define who is American and who is un-A merican. It is the process, by which we do things, that is all based upon the constitution, that is the American way to do it. The flag symbolizes that process and the people pledged to uphold that process. You can't pick one tweet, backing love of this symbol and the process, as proof that your president elect is not going to uphold the constitution and enforce the laws of the land, that the congress makes. Nor do I think it right to lose all respect for me, because I would find somebody that burned my flag, disloyal to it, and not worthy of its protections.

from a purely philosophic point of view, we can make any rules we want to go by, and go by them

Edited November 29, 2016 by tar

[rangerx]

Through this entire thread, you've pigeon-holed protesting as un-American.

 

So your president elect pledged to uphold the constitution, yet proved in his own words he's anti- 1st Amendment. Oh yes we can pick one tweet, that's yet another example of being dismissive.

 

Again. Liberal troll, conservative apologist.

 

If this were gun control and the 2nd Amendment, you and the waitforufo types would be in everyone's face like ugly on an ape.

[tar]

I am out. Too many neg reps. They are not guiding my opinion toward some better way. They are just pissing me off, as they seem undeserved.

 

By the way. I think I will preempt my desire to respond, by not reading the boards for a while.

 

Walking away for now.

[Delta1212]

For the record, I haven't neg'd you.

 

In any case, I was brought up to believe in America as a place of free expression without fear of reprisal from the government. That you could express whatever belief you liked in whatever manner you liked without legal sanction, as long as what you were doing did not pose a direct and immediate risk to the well-being of others.

 

I was taught that "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

 

And that there be circumstances where "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

That is the America I look for in the symbolism of the waving flag. It is not, apparently, the one that you do.

[iNow]

Stripping someone of their citizenship because they burn the flag does more to diminish that flag than the burning of it does.

Point well made. It doesn't get much simpler, yet for so many even this is too complex to comprehend.

[John Cuthber]

Threatening someone with any sort of harm for burning a flag is the sort of thing Daesh would do.

Does anyone really think Trump should be copying them?

[Ten oz]

Point well made. It doesn't get much simpler, yet for so many even this is too complex to comprehend.

It isn't complicated. Conservatives have made it clear that everything is purely sport far as they are concerned. Hypocrisy, contradiction, lies, and etc are concepts that don't apply. Trump has been on both sides of several issues, promised to never soften then reserved course, answered specific (and important) questions with "yes, no, maybe, and I will think about it later" all in the same answer.

 

No policy matters. No position matters. The GOP spent so much time under Obama being contrarian that they no longer see politics as anything but an us vs them feud. Trump toyed with punishing women for abortion. Are his comments on flag burning really so surprising. His supporters do not care. They are over the moon he won and nothing he says matters.

 

They are not yet out of the opposition mindset. They are still reflexively complaining about Obama, black lives matters, Hillary Clinton, and etc. Attacking liberals is still more important than what a President Trump will do. We see it in tar's posts. He is still using the Chicago black on black crime strawman argument to defend his positions.

 

These are nervous times.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Ten oz