Would the world be a better place without religion?

[Sensei]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Ironically the closest we ever got to this ideal is when religions start.

There is plentiful evil, greedy priests which do it just for gold, money, power and prestige..

 

[dimreepr]

32 minutes ago, Sensei said:

There is plentiful evil, greedy priests which do it just for gold, money, power and prestige..

2

How does that argue my point?

[koti]

7 hours ago, Sensei said:

There is plentiful evil, greedy priests which do it just for gold, money, power and prestige..

 

 

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

How does that argue my point?

It doesn’t. Because your vague answers leave too much to interpretation. 

[dimreepr]

15 hours ago, koti said:

It doesn’t. Because your vague answers leave too much to interpretation. 

 

If you want clarification you only have to ask.

[Itoero]

On ‎2‎-‎3‎-‎2018 at 4:04 PM, dimreepr said:

Not really my point, imagine what it takes to convert a pagan to a Christian or a Hindu to a Buddist, on mass? My point is that history clearly shows, every new major religion spread far and wide despite indigenous culture/belief.   

Can you give an example?

[gwb]

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 8:37 AM, dimreepr said:

Ironically the closest we ever got to this ideal is when religions start.

that is an interesting observation; it is unfortunate the ideal gets corrupted or degraded with use

[zapatos]

4 hours ago, Itoero said:

Can you give an example?

Christianity

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, gwb said:

that is an interesting observation; it is unfortunate the ideal gets corrupted or degraded with use

Even if you'll buy thing in shop, even if you'll make thing by your self, it'll degrade with time (not necessarily because of use. It's not required). Constant interaction with the Universe..

Space shuttle, space ship, after space travel to cosmos, looks like cheese under electron microscope, because of constant bombardment by e.g. particles from the Sun and micro meteorites..

Things that contain Carbon will degenerate just because of they're not pure C-12 and C-13 isotopes.. but contains "contamination" of radioactive Carbon C-14.. which will decay with time and turn into Nitrogen N-14 making random damages..

 

etc. etc. the same with the all other things containing even minute amount of radioactive isotopes contamination..

 

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, Itoero said:

Can you give an example?

I've given you two, how many do you want?

13 hours ago, gwb said:

that is an interesting observation; it is unfortunate the ideal gets corrupted or degraded with use

It's the idea that gets corrupted, through misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and misrepresentation; unfortunately, the ideal remains but no one knows why the idea worked in the first place.

[Itoero]

17 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I've given you two, how many do you want?

You said: "every new major religion spread far and wide despite indigenous culture/belief. " Where did you give examples to backup that idea?

Edited March 6, 2018 by Itoero

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, Itoero said:

You said: "every new major religion spread far and wide despite indigenous culture/belief. " Where did you give examples to backup that idea?

Are you suggesting Christianity or Buddhism didn't go global or supplant indigenous beliefs and culture?

[Itoero]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Are you suggesting Christianity or Buddhism didn't go global or supplant indigenous beliefs and culture?

Culture refers to social behavior and norms you find in a society. A new religion implants seeds which cause the culture to develop/evolve in a certain way. It's a slow process.

The current culture/beliefs and the geographic location of a population where the cause for the possibility of a new religion to have made its entry.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Itoero

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, Itoero said:

Culture refers to social behavior and norms you find in a society. A new religion implants seeds which cause the culture to develop/evolve differently.

The current culture/beliefs and the geographic location of a population where the cause for the possibility of a new religion to make its entry.

Normally you'd just neg rep all my posts, that would make more sense.

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Itoero said:

Culture refers to social behavior and norms you find in a society. A new religion implants seeds which cause the culture to develop/evolve in a certain way. It's a slow process.

It sounds like you agree. 

But it isn't always slow. Christianity spread from the middle-east to many other cultures within decades. 

[zapatos]

15 minutes ago, Strange said:

It sounds like you agree. 

But it isn't always slow. Christianity spread from the middle-east to many other cultures within decades. 

Indeed. The Roman Empire began its transition to Christianity in 313 AD and completed the transition in 323 AD.

[Sensei]

14 minutes ago, Strange said:

But it isn't always slow. Christianity spread from the middle-east to many other cultures within decades. 

That is, to some extent, Titus work (emperor-to-be at that time). He conquered Jerusalem, and took Jews as slaves and spread, sold them, around entire Roman Empire. Some of them were Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE)

 

[dimreepr]

17 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Some of them were Christians.

 

And some of them were religious.

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

And some of them were religious.

 

[Shauno]

Wow, 31 pages. I started with good intentions to read the pages but gave up around page 12. One of the things that disturbed me is that I didn't seem to be any actual Christians defending religion - there were some non-believers doing so. I am a Christian and it troubles me greatly that religion is falling out of favour. I see the world as a more dangerous place without it, with the exception of Islam. I see all the good works done by the Church - hospitals, schools, hostels, care homes, pastoral care, ... I see how it can inspire - Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, ... I see the harm from atheist ideologies. The great murderous wars/campaigns/purges of the 20 Century were all driven by atheist ideologies (Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Mao Tse Tung's China, Pol Pot' Cambodia) or pure greed. I see the rise of assisted suicide in places like Belgium, and late stage abortions.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Shauno

[iNow]

21 minutes ago, Shauno said:

see the harm from atheist ideologies. The great murderous wars/campaigns/purges of the 20 Century were all driven by atheist ideologies (Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Mao Tse Tung's China, Pol Pot' Cambodia) or pure greed. I see the rise of assisted suicide in places like Belgium, and late stage abortions.

Except atheism is not an ideology. It’s simply lack of belief in god(s). That’s it. End program. You know literally nothing else about the person based on that label alone. 

Do you also think bald is a hair color? Perhaps you think my NOT collecting stamps is a hobby?

Also, Hitler was Christian and used the church to further his agenda. Mao did not base his policies on his atheism, but on his push for communism, itself treated like a religion in his day. Likewise with Pol Pot who positioned himself as a god, not an atheist. 

These are old canards. They were wrong when originally suggested and they remain wrong today. 

All you know about atheists is that they lack belief in god. You know literally nothing else about them based on that label alone. 

See also: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/atheism

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by iNow

[Raider5678]

20 minutes ago, Shauno said:

Wow, 31 pages. I started with good intentions to read the pages but gave up around page 12. One of the things that disturbed me is that I didn't seem to be any actual Christians defending religion - there were some non-believers doing so. I am a Christian and it troubles me greatly that religion is falling out of favour. I see the world as a more dangerous place without it, with the exception of Islam. I see all the good works done by the Church - hospitals, schools, hostels, care homes, pastoral care, ... I see how it can inspire - Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, ... I see the harm from atheist ideologies. The great murderous wars/campaigns/purges of the 20 Century were all driven by atheist ideologies (Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Mao Tse Tung's China, Pol Pot' Cambodia) or pure greed. I see the rise of assisted suicide in places like Belgium, and late stage abortions.

To be fair, however, the crusades were pretty bad. Just saying.

 

 

 

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

To be fair, however, the crusades were pretty bad. Just saying.

And let's not forget the Inquisition.

[Raider5678]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

Also, Hitler was Christian and used the church to further his agenda. Mao did not base his policies on his atheism, but on his push for communism, itself treated like a religion in his day. Likewise with Pol Pot who positioned himself as a god, not an atheist. 

 

Okay, there are a lot of people who say Hitler was a Christian. However, the majority of actual historians agree he was not a Christian. The Hiter was a Christian myth was popularized on youtube. Now, don't get me wrong, I know you didn't get this from youtube because we both know better. However whoever you heard it from probably did.

 

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

And let's not forget the Inquisition.

That too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ultimately, Christians and Atheists have both done bad things.

Christianity has CAUSED a lot of bad things because it's an ideology. It's also CAUSED a lot of good things.

 

Atheism has caused diddly squat. So we can't blame anything on it except the nonbelief in a god/gods.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Raider5678

[Shauno]

42 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Atheism has caused diddly squat. So we can't blame anything on it except the nonbelief in a god/gods

Not true. Communism had Fascism have their own morality which by necessity excludes Christianity. Claiming Atheism wasn't a part of these philosophies is as disingenuous as claiming that Christianity had nothing to do with the Inquisition and Crusades since Christianity is only about love and forgiveness, although I actually think Christianity has a better claim at disassociation.

Nietzsche explored the consequences of "God is dead", and the destruction of morality. I doubt Hitler was intellectual sophisticated enough to be a devotee of Nietzsche but Nazism closely follows Nietzsche. If there is no God, then all sorts of horrors can happen and are OK if they further society. The Ubermensch is king. But in modern society, perhaps the encroachment of moral relativism is most terrifying. I have been following assisted suicides in Belgium - originally only for terminally ill, the bar has been lowered to depressed young adults!! Christianity has absolute standards - thou shalt not kill. The most terrifying thing is that without religion many observers cannot see anything wrong.

One of the points I've seen raised many times is that we would be fine without religion, and primitive tribal societies used as an example. By primitive tribal societies are not "noble savages", they are incredibly violent with perhaps 20% of males dying at the hands of others. That is our true nature - one that Christianity acknowledges, and I worry without the absolute foundations of religion, our future will allow that nature to surface.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Shauno

[iNow]

46 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

the majority of actual historians agree he was not a Christian.

Thank you for the correction, and I should’ve been more cautious with my words. What I intended to emphasize was how he used Christianity as another type of nationalism to further his ends. 

8 minutes ago, Shauno said:

Claiming Atheism wasn't a part of these philosophies is as disingenuous as claiming that Christianity had nothing to do with the Inquisition and Crusades

Please clarify for us: What is the philosophy or ideology of atheism?

9 minutes ago, Shauno said:

The most terrifying thing is that without religion many observers cannot see anything wrong.

I agree. That truly is terrifying, especially since our existence as a tribal species means that MOST of us get our sense of right and wrong from our local culture and village norms. If someone relies primarily on religion... or, more specifically, a book of Iron Age myths for that then they truly are depraved. 

11 minutes ago, Shauno said:

I worry without the absolute foundations of religion, our future will allow that nature to surface.

If religion is your source of morals, then how do you know enough to ignore the bits about stoning adulterers to death, it being okay to keeps slaves, or murdering your wife if she’s not a virgin on your wedding night? The only logical conclusion is that your morals come from elsewhere and you’re merely trying to retrofit them into your personal brand of woo and belief like a round org hammered through a square hole. 

[dimreepr]

6 hours ago, Shauno said:

I see the world as a more dangerous place without it, with the exception of Islam.

That's not very Christian of you.