Would the world be a better place without religion?

[dimreepr]

You're right, "how do you know" is indeed pointless in the face of such arrogance.

Please don't edit your post after I've posted.

[Tampitump]

What exactly makes me arrogant? The fact that I think there are problems with my own culture and that I express misgivings about it?

Tell me what I'm supposed to think about such home-grown ignorance? What is the dimreepr philosophy about how we are supposed to perceive an insular, bumpkin, culture that rejects evidence and clings to childish fairytales?

I'm not arrogant. I don't hate these people. I love them, in fact. I'm still very much a part of this culture. I still love my country upbringing. I'm still southern, and do all those cliche southern redneck things, its just that I'm reacting to a certain style of dogma prevalent in my neck of the woods that fosters the most insular breed of ignorance imaginaginable. I understand it very well. My family is this way. Everyone I know is this way. I get out and interact with it everyday. I've lived in it for the 25 years I've been alive. I was introctrinated by it myself.

I know I'm a strident and bombastic individual. I mean no harm to anyone. I'm a good person. I think everyone here would like me if they met me.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Tampitump

[dimreepr]

Tell me what I'm supposed to think about such home-grown ignorance? What is the dimreepr philosophy about how we are supposed to perceive an insular, bumpkin, culture that rejects evidence and clings to childish fairytales?

 

Well since they do you no harm, I'd suggest you tolerate them and accept they think differently to you.

 

If you're entitled to your opinion, aren't they, equally, entitled to their's (as long as it doesn't harm anyone)?

 

You're equally entitled to try and persuade them of their folly, however, you aren't entitled to force them to think as you do, besides you couldn't anyway (you can lead a horse to water...).

 

You can bang your head against a brick wall all you want, after all, who does it harm???

Edited December 5, 2016 by dimreepr

[TheBeardedDude]

Would the world be a better place without religion?

 

I think it would.

Religion creates groups, it forms boundaries between people...that causes many problems.

 

 

I am mostly with you on this. Religion is inherently divisive, but so are a lot of other things (countries are too, etc). The question is whether or not religion provides a service/product that only it can provide that offsets its divisiveness. For example, countries provide defense and support and representation, etc. Making it worth it to live in a country as opposed to not. I don't think religion provides anything one couldn't get from a secular group/institution and as a consequence I too think the world would be better without religion.

[dimreepr]

 

 

I am mostly with you on this. Religion is inherently divisive, but so are a lot of other things (countries are too, etc). The question is whether or not religion provides a service/product that only it can provide that offsets its divisiveness. For example, countries provide defense and support and representation, etc. Making it worth it to live in a country as opposed to not. I don't think religion provides anything one couldn't get from a secular group/institution and as a consequence I too think the world would be better without religion.

 

I'm sure you think this is prophetic, but read on; It's on it's ninth page, after all, and this post is very simplistic, not to mention wrong.

[Moontanman]

 

Well since they do you no harm, I'd suggest you tolerate them and accept they think differently to you.

 

If you're entitled to your opinion, aren't they, equally, entitled to their's (as long as it doesn't harm anyone)?

 

You're equally entitled to try and persuade them of their folly, however, you aren't entitled to force them to think as you do, besides you couldn't anyway (you can lead a horse to water...).

 

You can bang your head against a brick wall all you want, after all, who does it harm???

 

 

But they do cause us harm! They try in every way to force us to live by their rules, to force their religion on children as superior to science in explaining the natural world, they support bigotry and hate of all that are different from them. The intolerant cannot be tolerated...

[dimreepr]

 

 

But they do cause us harm! They try in every way to force us to live by their rules,

 

In what way, exactly, do they cause you harm? They obviously haven't forced you to live by their rules.

 

to force their religion on children as superior to science in explaining the natural world, they support bigotry and hate of all that are different from them.

 

 

In what way doesn't a parent try to imbibe their beliefs on their children? And how often do those children decide for themselves?

 

The intolerant cannot be tolerated...

 

You don't have to like what they say in order to tolerate them, and whilst their hatred doesn't impinge on you, what does it matter?

[Moontanman]

In what way, exactly, do they cause you harm? They obviously haven't forced you to live by their rules.

 

They cause me harm by harming our society, anytime any one persons rights can be taken away by someone else due to beliefs we all suffer. They do indeed make me live by their rules, they intimidate me and others like me by constantly trying to proselytize us, by a constant hostile living environment if you do not confirm you are "not" one of them.

 

They pass laws based on nothing but belief, persecute people for no reason other than belief.

 

In what way doesn't a parent try to imbibe their beliefs on their children? And how often do those children decide for themselves?

Instilling lies as truth is wrong, abusing children mentally and physically by teaching to fear living any other way, by threats of hell fire and disenfranchising anyone who questions.

 

 

You don't have to like what they say in order to tolerate them, and whilst their hatred doesn't impinge on you, what does it matter?

Their hatred does imping on me, both personally and by the mere fact that tolerating their hatred gives other people free righn to do as well. My gay son was beaten severely in college by people who hated him because he was different. That cannot be brushed under the rug by tolerance...

 

"edit due to leaving out a word"

Edited December 5, 2016 by Moontanman

[dimreepr]

 

They cause me harm by harming our society, anytime any one persons rights can be taken away by someone else due to beliefs we all suffer.

 

Is it only religion that attempts this?

 

They do indeed make me live by their rules, they intimidate me and others like me by constantly trying to proselytize us, by a constant hostile living environment if you do not confirm you are one of them.

 

 

Yet you post this.

 

Instilling lies as truth is wrong, abusing children mentally and physically by teaching to fear living any other way, by threats of hell fire and disenfranchising anyone who questions.

 

 

Why should it be you that decides the truth?

 

My gay son was beaten severely in college by people who hated him because he was different. That cannot be brushed under the rug by tolerance...

 

Really? Doesn't tolerance defeat the hatred of his difference? You don't have to like what you tolerate to understand why tolerance undermines hate.

[Tampitump]

 

Well since they do you no harm, I'd suggest you tolerate them and accept they think differently to you.

 

If you're entitled to your opinion, aren't they, equally, entitled to their's (as long as it doesn't harm anyone)?

 

You're equally entitled to try and persuade them of their folly, however, you aren't entitled to force them to think as you do, besides you couldn't anyway (you can lead a horse to water...).

 

You can bang your head against a brick wall all you want, after all, who does it harm???

Why do you keep ascribing intentions to me that I've never expressed?

[Moontanman]

Is it only religion that attempts this?

 

 

This is not a neener neener neener contest, this thread is about religion, because others do this doesn't make it right for religion to do so!

 

Yet you post this.

 

I left out a word by accident, see the edit...

 

Why should it be you that decides the truth?

 

 

I do not decide the truth, reality is what it is, belief doesn't figure into it. Only testable repeatable evidence counts.

 

Really? Doesn't tolerance defeat the hatred of his difference? You don't have to like what you tolerate to understand why tolerance undermines hate.

So we should tolerate terrorists, tolerate abuse, tolerate sexual abuse, tolerate the disenfranchisement of people whose only crime is simply not agreeing with the people who play elaborate games of pretend with a magical monster in the sky?

[Prometheus]

I am mostly with you on this. Religion is inherently divisive, but so are a lot of other things (countries are too, etc). The question is whether or not religion provides a service/product that only it can provide that offsets its divisiveness. For example, countries provide defense and support and representation, etc. Making it worth it to live in a country as opposed to not. I don't think religion provides anything one couldn't get from a secular group/institution and as a consequence I too think the world would be better without religion.

 

I agree there is nothing unique about the services religions provide, but until replacements for those services are forthcoming then religion has a role.

 

Where are the secular groups or individuals with the desire and ability to visit the dying in hospitals the breadth of any country? This is not to say secular groups/individuals couldn't do it: it is only to say where are they? They are needed.

[Tampitump]

 

I agree there is nothing unique about the services religions provide, but until replacements for those services are forthcoming then religion has a role.

I'll give you an example of why this doesn't happen. This year, at the Christmas parade in my closest larger city, an atheist group built a float and joined the parade. They didn't do anything out of the ordinary. They just had a float that stated who they were, they threw candy out to all the kids just like all the other floats, they smiled, waved, and acted jolly like everyone else. But the people of the town were not going to have it. There was a social media storm locally about them being in the parade, despite not doing anything out of the ordinary. Whenever other groups try to do something, they get repudiated and ostracized. These atheists we're just trying to be who they were and join in on the fun. But the Bible thumpers we're not having it. You can probably attribute this same type of motivation to why secular groups don't often become successful. If it ain't Jesusy enough, they're not having it.

[Prometheus]

Thanks for sharing. America sounds like an awful place to live. Is that sort of harassment not illegal?

 

Heard this talk from Sam Harris which is perhaps the best exploration of spirituality without religion: including the idea that they are separate things.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxzAQRYYqlk&t=1s

[dimreepr]

So we should tolerate terrorists, tolerate abuse, tolerate sexual abuse, tolerate the disenfranchisement of people whose only crime is simply not agreeing

 

We should never accept or tolerate such things, if we can change them, but you should never conflate tolerance with liking.

 

What, if I may ask, have you, actually, done to change the above?

 

If we don't tolerate that that we can't change, the only option is hate and intolerance and how is that different to those who perpetrate such atrocities?

 

ISIS wants us to hate them, it serves their purpose and just creates more of them.

 

If you want to make friends, do you:

 

Smile, engage in friendly banter and be kind; or frown, bark orders and put a gun to their head?

Why do you keep ascribing intentions to me that I've never expressed?

 

I didn't ascribe anything to you, please explain;?

 

You asked.

 

What is the dimreepr philosophy about how we are supposed to perceive an insular, bumpkin, culture that rejects evidence and clings to childish fairytales?

 

 

And I answered, with my philosophy.

 

Well since they do you no harm, I'd suggest you tolerate them and accept they think differently to you.

If you're entitled to your opinion, aren't they, equally, entitled to their's (as long as it doesn't harm anyone)?

You're equally entitled to try and persuade them of their folly, however, you aren't entitled to force them to think as you do, besides you couldn't anyway (you can lead a horse to water...).

You can bang your head against a brick wall all you want, after all, who does it harm???

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by dimreepr

[Moontanman]

 

We should never accept or tolerate such things, if we can change them, but you should never conflate tolerance with liking.

 

What, if I may ask, have you, actually, done to change the above?

 

If we don't tolerate that that we can't change, the only option is hate and intolerance and how is that different to those who perpetrate such atrocities?

 

ISIS wants us to hate them, it serves their purpose and just creates more of them.

 

If you want to make friends, do you:

 

Smile, engage in friendly banter and be kind; or frown, bark orders and put a gun to their head?

 

I didn't ascribe anything to you, please explain;?

 

You asked.

 

 

And I answered, with my philosophy.

 

 

 

So we should tolerate those who seek to destroy us? I am not talking about not tolerating people who disagree with me on religion. As long as you can practice your religion under the rule of law then have at it but using ancient texts as an excuse to conquer the world cannot be tolerated. Trying to make everyone else conform to those ancient texts cannot be tolerated.

 

Religion by it's own definition seeks to convert the world, if that conversion is indeed voluntary then you get what you paid for. Your religious rights end where my rights begin, governments cannot be allowed to go by the laws in an ancient book.

 

If you or your religion is being suppressed I would be among the first to defend your rights but religion cannot return the favor. Their dogma requires them to be intolerant of any other.

 

The edit is quite plainly marked by " " around the one word I left out..

[Prometheus]

...but using ancient texts as an excuse to conquer the world cannot be tolerated. Trying to make everyone else conform to those ancient texts cannot be tolerated.

 

Using anything as an excuse to conquer the world cannot be tolerated. Trying to make anyone else conform to (nearly) anything cannot be tolerated. Religion should not be singled out in this regard.

 

 

Religion by it's own definition seeks to convert the world...

 

Not all religions. Many have explicit and stringent rules about proselytising. You just don't hear about them because, well, they're not proselytising. Unfortunately, they traditionally get done over by religions all too willing to proselytise.

[dimreepr]

 

 

So we should tolerate those who seek to destroy us?

 

FFS you should read again, but failing that, I'll ask again.

 

What have you, personally, done about it?

 

Perhaps a more pertinent question would be, what, personally, can you do about it?

 

Or perhaps more pertinent still would be, how does your intolerance solve the problem?

 

[TheBeardedDude]

 

I'm sure you think this is prophetic, but read on; It's on it's ninth page, after all, and this post is very simplistic, not to mention wrong.

 

 

I'm sure you think this reply has some value. How are opinions wrong?

[dimreepr]

 

 

I'm sure you think this reply has some value. How are opinions wrong?

 

Read the thread and then get back to me.

[TheBeardedDude]

 

Read the thread and then get back to me.

 

 

I don't converse with arrogant pricks. Bon voyage

 

I agree there is nothing unique about the services religions provide, but until replacements for those services are forthcoming then religion has a role.

 

Where are the secular groups or individuals with the desire and ability to visit the dying in hospitals the breadth of any country? This is not to say secular groups/individuals couldn't do it: it is only to say where are they? They are needed.

 

Yes, churches and religion in general are far more widespread than secular groups. But I don't see that as meaning that religion plays a critical role that people couldn't find without religion. The reality is that most don't want to find something outside of their religion and see no need to seek it out. That's cool, I don't care as long as they don't use their religion to try and dictate what I do with my life (or anyone else who doesn't want it).

 

As for secular groups visiting hospitals, I rather think visiting the dead/dying is something you do if invited to do so. I'd rather secular institutions not invite themselves into people's lives like the religious do during such vulnerable times.

[dimreepr]

 

 

I don't converse with arrogant pricks. Bon voyage

 

OK, please read the thread before you assume you're right.

[TheBeardedDude]

 

Using anything as an excuse to conquer the world cannot be tolerated. Trying to make anyone else conform to (nearly) anything cannot be tolerated. Religion should not be singled out in this regard.

 

 

 

Not all religions. Many have explicit and stringent rules about proselytising. You just don't hear about them because, well, they're not proselytising. Unfortunately, they traditionally get done over by religions all too willing to proselytise.

 

 

Of course not all religions are created equal in terms of how they interact with one another and with the non-religious. As long as a religion is okay with secularity, it isn't as likely to manifest problems. I think the issue that I and others are alluding to is that the dominant religions today have very loud factions at their extremes who dominate the conversations and want their religion (their version of their religion) in other people's lives.

 

So the question is whether or not the harm done by these groups outweighs any benefits from groups that don't do this. And I would say no. I don't think it is a fair or even trade.

[Moontanman]

 

 

FFS you should read again, but failing that, I'll ask again.

 

What have you, personally, done about it?

 

Perhaps a more pertinent question would be, what, personally, can you do about it?

 

Or perhaps more pertinent still would be, how does your intolerance solve the problem?

 

 

 

 

I live in the Southern US, the bible belt, I see religion encroaching into the rights of others regularly. I oppose these things by being active in my community. I have Many stripes of religious neighbors in my neighborhood, I never go out and try to convert them in any way.

 

I do not consider standing up for the rights of others to be intolerant. But I will react to the intolerance of others to the degree they are intolerant. I put up with being constantly told I am going to hell.

 

I fight against pseudo science being introduced into our schools and government as well as religious dogma. Why you would expect me or anyone else to roll over and ignore the fact that people are being attacked, killed, abused, denied basic human rights and trying to insert religious dogma into our society?

 

It is not intolerant to not tolerate those would would take my and others rights away. To allow them to do so is not tolerance it is surrender.

 

What can i do? I fight, resist, and do my best to ignore the intolerant unless they pose a threat to others and society at large.

[TheBeardedDude]

 

 

I live in the Southern US, the bible belt, I see religion encroaching into the rights of others regularly. I oppose these things by being active in my community. I have Many stripes of religious neighbors in my neighborhood, I never go out and try to convert them in any way.

 

I do not consider standing up for the rights of others to be intolerant. But I will react to the intolerance of others to the degree they are intolerant. I put up with being constantly told I am going to hell.

 

I fight against pseudo science being introduced into our schools and government as well as religious dogma. Why you would expect me or anyone else to roll over and ignore the fact that people are being attacked, killed, abused, denied basic human rights and trying to insert religious dogma into our society?

 

It is not intolerant to not tolerate those would would take my and others rights away. To allow them to do so is not tolerance it is surrender.

 

What can i do? I fight, resist, and do my best to ignore the intolerant unless they pose a threat to others and society at large.

 

 

I grew up in the bible belt and seeing and hearing the same things you are experiencing helped me to leave my religious beliefs behind. I didn't want to be affiliated with those I saw as intolerant of others and who were openly bigoted.

 

I am tolerant of many things, but I am intolerant of intolerance.