Would the world be a better place without religion?

[Moontanman]

 

And you have the audacity to accuse me of "being intentionally obtuse".

 

 

I am not sure of what you are doing, you seem to be ignorant of what the abrahamic religious dogma says. I am ignorant of what the Hindu holy books say but I am quite well versed in Christianity, it's dogma and how the vast majority of christians ignore the parts they do not like. You seem to be among those that ignore the horrific things that Yahweh demands to be done and the thing he does by himself. None of the things i have listed are obtuse nor are they cherry picked. I have been quite accurate about what Yahweh demands we do, what Yahweh permits, and what Yahweh claims he does.

 

The Christian bible is a horror story and the main character is a pathological monster, if you cannot see those things then you are either ignorant, willfully or by accident.

 

The question of would the world be a better place with out religion depends on whether you drink the kool aid straight or if you ask about the ingredients and refuse to drink all of them.

 

It cannot be denied that religion does good things, nor can it be denied that internal parasitic worms do good things, the good things both do are unintentional and the resources they squander could be put to better use by the people they parasitise.

[dimreepr]

I gave the link before, did you forget?

 

Nope, I just didn't recognise it as evidence.

 

How can I know the direct cause of a criminal act?

 

 

Yet you're certain the source is religion.

[iNow]

Muslims from Morocco and Turkey make up at least 16 percent of the prison population, compared with 2 percent of the general populace.

Have you thought about the possible biases in Moroccan and Turkish police and judicial system as a whole? In much the same way, black men are the overwhelming majority of the prison population in the US, despite committing crime at a similar rate to whites and making up a far smaller percentage of the population.

 

Prometheus is quite correct. You're doing little more than lying to yourself with statistics. Try not to do that. It's bad for all of us, but especially you.

[dimreepr]

 

 

I am not sure of what you are doing, you seem to be ignorant of what the abrahamic religious dogma says. I am ignorant of what the Hindu holy books say but I am quite well versed in Christianity, it's dogma and how the vast majority of christians ignore the parts they do not like. You seem to be among those that ignore the horrific things that Yahweh demands to be done and the thing he does by himself. None of the things i have listed are obtuse nor are they cherry picked. I have been quite accurate about what Yahweh demands we do, what Yahweh permits, and what Yahweh claims he does.

 

The Christian bible is a horror story and the main character is a pathological monster, if you cannot see those things then you are either ignorant, willfully or by accident.

 

The question of would the world be a better place with out religion depends on whether you drink the kool aid straight or if you ask about the ingredients and refuse to drink all of them.

 

It cannot be denied that religion does good things, nor can it be denied that internal parasitic worms do good things, the good things both do are unintentional and the resources they squander could be put to better use by the people they parasitise.

 

Every bad thing you associate with religion is present in a secular society and the ONLY difference between the two is that secularism doesn't try to teach one to be content?

 

Just answer the question.

[Itoero]

Nope, I just didn't recognise it as evidence.

Why not? You don't trust the Open Society Institute?

 

 

Yet you're certain the source is religion.

Cmon dude, use your head.

All Muslims that cause crime to go up have one thing in common, there religious background...Islam.

[dimreepr]

Why not?

 

Because it's not evidence.

 

All Muslims that cause crime to go up have one thing in common, there religious background...Islam.

 

 

No shit Sherlock.

[Itoero]

Have you thought about the possible biases in Moroccan and Turkish police and judicial system as a whole? In much the same way, black men are the overwhelming majority of the prison population in the US, despite committing crime at a similar rate to whites and making up a far smaller percentage of the population.

 

Prometheus is quite correct. You're doing little more than lying to yourself with statistics. Try not to do that. It's bad for all of us, but especially you.

Why are there biases?

And why do you think black men are the overwhelming majority of the prison population in the US?

Are you a bit racist?

No shit Sherlock.

Is that what you say when you have nothing useful to say? Edited December 15, 2016 by Itoero

[iNow]

Are you a bit racist?

Maybe. I mean, I certainly try not to be, but I'm only human and consequently subject to all of the frailties of our species. None of this addresses my core point, though. It's okay if you didn't understand. Please just say so and I'll express it differently.

[Prometheus]

All those Muslims have one thing in common, they are Muslim. Muslims are obviously more likely to show criminal behavior. Why don't those data show that in your opinion?

 

All those divorcees have one thing in common: margarine consumption. Margarine obviously makes divorce rates increase. Yes?

 

 

Why are there biases?

 

Good question. You might start with confounding variables. Better, i think, to learn this concept in the general before looking at specific cases to help avoid conformation bias. There are plenty of other sources of bias but that should be a good start.

 

All Muslims that cause crime to go up have one thing in common, there religious background...Islam.

 

Try this. All X that cause crime to go up have one thing in common: they are all X. This is the very definition of a tautology, to which 'no shit Sherlock' is an appropriate response.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Prometheus

[Moontanman]

 

 

Just answer the question.

 

Secularism doesn't teach people to be content? On the face of the question the answer is no. But teaching children to believe in Santa Claus teaches them to be content as well, what would be your point?

 

Teaching people that there is an after life where they get 72 virgins or an after life where they have great mansions waiting for them as long as they do what religion teaches them is hardly honest or useful to anyone but the ones in control.

 

Teaching someone to be content with their lot in this life no matter how bad it is because it will be so wonderful after they die is criminal...

Edited December 16, 2016 by Moontanman

[Tampitump]

Once again dimreepr, my invitation to you to visit the Bible Belt still extends. You've never witnessed minds so insular, so poisoned by hidebound religious teachings.

 

And you've simply got to stop asserting such nonsense. You keep claiming (without supporting evidence or argument) that religion doesn't deal in moral guidance or teaching. This has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. This is like saying shower stalls are not designed to bathe in. Morality is the biggest topic religion addresses. It amazes me the amount of bold, unsupported, completely off-the-wall assertions you've thrown out.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Tampitump

[Itoero]

All those divorcees have one thing in common: margarine consumption. Margarine obviously makes divorce rates increase. Yes?

You are again not making any sense. If only Muslims from one country or area show increased crime then you can't ascribe it to religion. But that's not the case at all...Muslims in general cause an increase in criminality, it's not linked to specific groups.

 

You know how Muslims killed people from Charlie Hebdo for making a cartoon about Mohammed? (in Paris)

There have been 2 terror attacks on Charlie Hebdo.

 

Germany probably shelters the most migrants.

During the 2015/2016 New Year's Eve celebrations, hundreds of sexual assaults (including groping), at least 24 rapes, and numerous thefts were reported in Germany, mainly in Cologne city centre. Similar incidents were reported in Hamburg, Frankfurt, Dortmund, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart, and Bielefeld.

On 7 June, a Federal Criminal Police Office report confirmed that most of the perpetrators were of North African origin and had arrived in Germany during the European migrant crisis.

 

Good question. You might start with confounding variables. Better, i think, to learn this concept in the general before looking at specific cases to help avoid conformation bias. There are plenty of other sources of bias but that should be a good start.

Are you kidding me? It's pretty easy to count how many people there are from Morocco and Turkey in prison...aren't prisoners registered? Edited December 16, 2016 by Itoero

[dimreepr]

 

Secularism doesn't teach people to be content? On the face of the question the answer is no. But teaching children to believe in Santa Claus teaches them to be content as well, what would be your point?

 

Does it really? It seems to me that in this day and age, at least in the west, it teaches them expectation which often leads to disappointment. It teaches them to live for tomorrow instead of enjoying today. It teaches them that stuff is important and leads to fulfillment.

 

Teaching people that there is an after life where they get 72 virgins or an after life where they have great mansions waiting for them as long as they do what religion teaches them is hardly honest or useful to anyone but the ones in control.

Teaching someone to be content with their lot in this life no matter how bad it is because it will be so wonderful after they die is criminal...

 

 

Seriously??? The real criminal act is to deny someone contentment because you don't believe what they do.

Edited December 16, 2016 by dimreepr

[DrP]

There must be a better way of reaching contentment rather than lying to one's self or others though.

[dimreepr]

Once again dimreepr, my invitation to you to visit the Bible Belt still extends. You've never witnessed minds so insular, so poisoned by hidebound religious teachings.

 

Yes I have, I'm reading it, intolerance/hatred is the poison often as a result of condescension.

 

And you've simply got to stop asserting such nonsense. You keep claiming (without supporting evidence or argument) that religion doesn't deal in moral guidance or teaching. This has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

 

 

I've supported and argued my assertion throughout this thread, if anything it's you that demands you're right without supporting argument other than hand waving

 

Morality is the biggest topic religion addresses. It amazes me the amount of bold, unsupported, completely off-the-wall assertions you've thrown out.

 

 

Morality is incidental to the teachings; having found contentment I can recognise the ingredients (tolerance, forgiveness, love etc.), so I can see through the haze of misinterpretations and misunderstanding.

There must be a better way of reaching contentment rather than lying to one's self or others though.

 

My way was 40 years of pain and suffering, I'm not sure that's a better way.

[Moontanman]

 

Yes I have, I'm reading it, intolerance/hatred is the poison often as a result of condescension.

 

 

I've supported and argued my assertion throughout this thread, if anything it's you that demands you're right without supporting argument other than hand waving

 

 

Morality is incidental to the teachings; having found contentment I can recognise the ingredients (tolerance, forgiveness, love etc.), so I can see through the haze of misinterpretations and misunderstanding.

 

My way was 40 years of pain and suffering, I'm not sure that's a better way.

 

 

If you followed the morality of the Christian bible most modern people would be locked up.

 

http://www.evilbible.com/

 

 

Welcome to the EvilBible.com website.

This website is designed to spread the vicious truth about the Bible. For far too long priests and preachers have completely ignored the vicious criminal acts that the Bible promotes. The so called God of the Bible makes Osama Bin Laden look like a Boy Scout. This God, according to the Bible, is directly responsible for many mass-murders, rapes, pillage, plunder, slavery, child abuse and killing, not to mention the killing of unborn children. I have included references to the Biblical passages, so grab your Bible and follow along.

It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said Thou shall not kill. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21).

God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses (Joshua 6). In Judges 21 He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife!

Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person.

Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it’s OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself. Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it (Matthew 19:12). I don’t know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.

The God of the Bible also was a big fan of ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.

And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid (Luke 16:17). There are many more quotes on this topic at my Do Not Ignore the Old Testament web page.

I know that most Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love.

If you follow the links on this site you will learn about all the nasty things in the Bible that are usually not talked about by priests and preachers.

 

Just a small taste of morality from the Bible, from murder to slavery to rape of little girls God is one kinky, magical, anthropomorphic, Immortal...

[Prometheus]

You are again not making any sense. If only Muslims from one country or area show increased crime then you can't ascribe it to religion. But that's not the case at all...Muslims in general cause an increase in criminality, it's not linked to specific groups.

 

You know how Muslims killed people from Charlie Hebdo for making a cartoon about Mohammed? (in Paris)

There have been 2 terror attacks on Charlie Hebdo.

 

Germany probably shelters the most migrants.

During the 2015/2016 New Year's Eve celebrations, hundreds of sexual assaults (including groping), at least 24 rapes, and numerous thefts were reported in Germany, mainly in Cologne city centre. Similar incidents were reported in Hamburg, Frankfurt, Dortmund, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart, and Bielefeld.

On 7 June, a Federal Criminal Police Office report confirmed that most of the perpetrators were of North African origin and had arrived in Germany during the European migrant crisis.

 

Are you kidding me? It's pretty easy to count how many people there are from Morocco and Turkey in prison...aren't prisoners registered?

 

The point is a far more general one about the scientific method. The point with the margarine and divorce rates show that it is possible that variables are correlated without them being causative.

 

And it's not a small problem. There was a time ecstasy was thought to cause HIV because they were strongly correlated. Turns out the sample they were looking at (gay men in some American city) both took ecstasy and engaged in risky sex. Also a lesson in trying to generalise to a population from an unrepresentative sample.

 

Now all the points you have raised regarding subsets of Muslim populations is certainly a concern and warrants further attention. But it is the start of a scientific investigation, far from the end of it. That means thinking hard about the variables of interest to measure, collecting the data and performing suitable statistical analysis.

 

What part of this process do you object to?

[dimreepr]

 

 

If you followed the morality of the Christian bible most modern people would be locked up.

 

http://www.evilbible.com/

 

 

Just a small taste of morality from the Bible, from murder to slavery to rape of little girls God is one kinky, magical, anthropomorphic, Immortal...

 

Have you actually read any of my posts? Here's a brief summary:

 

The OT was out of date and understanding when the NT was conceived (and should be dropped), the morality in the bible is incidental to it's teaching and god/heaven/hell are teaching aids that cease to be necessary when one finds contentment.

 

I'm not surprised you are so keen on the OT (none of your cherry picking comes from the NT) since it's such a convenient bat with which to beat those that, innocently, believe something you don't.

 

Moontanman - The evangelical atheist

[MonDie]

This is a few pages late, but it occurred to me that some people, religious and non-religious alike, often complain about a "holier than thou" attitude among some religious people. I realized there may have been some indirect support for this hidden in all that data.

The pupmed reading about primary and secondary psychopathy noted that these "fearless dominance" traits, which are unique to primary psychopathy and not emphasized in the non-religious, are similar to narcissism. Reduced narcissism is also consistent with the the non-religous showing more emphasis on Conscientiousness (and less on Agreeableness) than the typical antisocial person. That is, despite the link of antisocial tendencies (low Conscientiousness) to fearless dominance traits and even narcissistic traits (low Agreeableness), the non-religious aren't that low in Agreeableness and they aren't any lower in modesty, the facet of Agreeableness that is most emphasized in narcissists. It's possible that there is a unique relationship of narcissism to religiosity, but this is being masked by the much stronger relationship of non-religiousness to antisocial tendencies and, incidentally, to narcissism thereby.

Edited December 17, 2016 by MonDie

[Tampitump]

Oh boy. I knew when I logged on I was likely to read something ridiculous from dimreepr.

 

I would like to request that you stop calling me intolerant and hateful. I will not put up with that out of you again dimreepr, do you understand me? Do not call me that again. Yes, that is me being intolerant to your stupidity.

 

What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to sit here in my little corner and say, "Oh yes, I just love all these wonderful and kind Christian people! I just love how they try to deprive me of rights, and try to deprive the rights of others. I just love how they think I'm going to burn for an eternity after I die, and that that's a positive and admirable belief to hold. They are so kind and so sweet and so wise. I just hate how bitter and intolerant of a person I am that I can't be just like them!"

[MonDie]

Itoero, you need to consider that most muslims are dark skinned. I've heard that that there are more African Americans in US prisons. I do know that this could be accounted for by biased policing: they're more likely to be pulled over, suffer police brutality, etc. Significantly increased use of police brutality against African Americans was among the findings of the recent work by Harvard's Roland Fryer even though the researchers found no difference in the most severe use of force, shooting. On the other hand, it also occurs to me that immigrants usually have lower incarceration rates than the native born.

It would be useful to see a breakdown of what their crimes are, to see whether it is consistent with biased policing or even biased law-making. Take for example the French ban on full-face burqas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

Edited December 17, 2016 by MonDie

[dimreepr]

Oh boy. I knew when I logged on I was likely to read something ridiculous from dimreepr.

 

Please explain.

 

I would like to request that you stop calling me intolerant and hateful. I will not put up with that out of you again dimreepr, do you understand me? Do not call me that again. Yes, that is me being intolerant to your stupidity.

 

 

I'd be happy too, when you stop.

 

 

What am I supposed to do?

 

 

Tolerate...

[Itoero]

Itoero, you need to consider that most muslims are dark skinned. I've heard that that there are more African Americans in US prisons. I do know that this could be accounted for by biased policing: they're more likely to be pulled over, suffer police brutality, etc. Significantly increased use of police brutality against African Americans was among the findings of the recent work by Harvard's Roland Fryer even though the researchers found no difference in the most severe use of force, shooting. On the other hand, it also occurs to me that immigrants usually have lower incarceration rates than the native born.

It would be useful to see a breakdown of what their crimes are, to see whether it is consistent with biased policing or even biased law-making. Take for example the French ban on full-face burqas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

The comparison with African Americans does not make much sense. Isn't the biased policing in the us caused by racism? The statistics that show that Muslim immigration give a rise in criminality are from many countries. The evidence for this behavior of Muslims is so overwhelming. Where I 'studied', in Leuven, there are often North-Africans trying to steal cell-phones from drunk or naive students. I heard this happens a lot in Brussel as well, and probably in all student-cities. My brother is a cop in Brussel, he has often stories about fucked up behavior from North-Africans...he was once bitten when he was settling a North-African in a car...the gay had Hepatitis and my brother got 'the fire' in his arm. And you do know that Isis are mostly Muslims right? In Belgium they got help from Muslim communities. In Brussel there are area's where normal police does not go.

Sint-Jans-Molenbeek for example... During the 2015/2016 100s of sexual assaults(24 rapes) and numerous thefts were committed in Germany. A Federal Criminal Police Office report confirmed that most of the perpetrators were of North African origin and had arrived in Germany during the European migrant crisis. And you do know about the strong atheist discrimination and the mal treatment of women in Muslim-countries? It's very normal that those people create problems when you place them in more civilised countries.

 

The point is a far more general one about the scientific method. The point with the margarine and divorce rates show that it is possible that variables are correlated without them being causative.

 

And it's not a small problem. There was a time ecstasy was thought to cause HIV because they were strongly correlated. Turns out the sample they were looking at (gay men in some American city) both took ecstasy and engaged in risky sex. Also a lesson in trying to generalise to a population from an unrepresentative sample.

 

Now all the points you have raised regarding subsets of Muslim populations is certainly a concern and warrants further attention. But it is the start of a scientific investigation, far from the end of it. That means thinking hard about the variables of interest to measure, collecting the data and performing suitable statistical analysis.

 

What part of this process do you object to?

Whatever is the direct causes for the criminality...religion is definitely the driving force behind it. Muslim terrorism proves this. When someone blows himself up, he often does it because of some political reason yet religion is still the main indirect cause. Religion makes people a lot more vulnerable to suggestion, especially when they were indoctrinated as kid.

 

Islam is about indoctrination (and so is Christianity in many areas).

I've seen a YouTube where a man admits he teaches his son that apostasy demands the death penalty.

Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in a 'new' law.

You should have a look to the number of Muslims that support death penalty for apostasy...it's frightening.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam[/url]

Edited December 17, 2016 by Itoero

[Prometheus]

Whatever is the direct causes for the criminality...religion is definitely the driving force behind it. Muslim terrorism proves this. When someone blows himself up, he often does it because of some political reason yet religion is still the main indirect cause. Religion makes people a lot more vulnerable to suggestion, especially when they were indoctrinated as kid.

 

Islam is about indoctrination (and so is Christianity in many areas).

I've seen a YouTube where a man admits he teaches his son that apostasy demands the death penalty.

Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in a 'new' law.

You should have a look to the number of Muslims that support death penalty for apostasy...it's frightening.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Saudi_Arabia

 

OK, so you object to the scientific method itself, at least i know where you stand.

 

Forget about religion for a minute, there is a far more fundamental point about confounding variables you are failing to grasp. You have basically just said 'yeah confounding variables might exist, but even if they do they will make no difference to my statistical inference'. Which means you don't know, at a very basic level, what a confounding variable actually is. Worse, you seem to making absolutely no attempt to learn. Even worse you are quite happy to nurture a hatred for a subset of the human population on the back of it.

[iNow]

The OT was out of date and understanding when the NT was conceived (and should be dropped), the morality in the bible is incidental to it's teaching and god/heaven/hell are teaching aids that cease to be necessary when one finds contentment.

 

I'm not surprised you are so keen on the OT (none of your cherry picking comes from the NT) since it's such a convenient bat with which to beat those that, innocently, believe something you don't.

The challenge with this position, of course, is that it's immediately and entirely undercut by the New Testament itself, the very book you're here suggesting we should all treat as gospel.

 

http://www.evilbible.com/do-not-ignore-the-old-testament/

Thou Shall Not Ignore the Old Testament: New Testament Verses Which Demand Following the Old Testament

[mp][/mp]

Oh boy. I knew when I logged on I was likely to read something ridiculous from dimreepr.

Nickels worth of free advice? Avoid comments like these. They do little more than undercut an otherwise credible and valid position.

I would like to request that you stop calling me intolerant and hateful. I will not put up with that out of you again dimreepr, do you understand me? Do not call me that again.

And also comments like these since you have no mechanism whatsoever to enforce them.