Would the world be a better place without religion?

[Tampitump]

 

OK then, you can do nothing about it.

 

 

The only way to stop intolerance is tolerance; you win friends with bread and a smile, not a scowl and a bullet.

You're right, man. I'm such a nasty, hateful, spiteful person for having problems with the majority putting their thumb on me. I'm such a bitter and mean person for not smiling and keeping quiet while these wonderful people tell me I'm evil and try to sign my rights and the rights of others away into the law books. I'm so wrong for opposing how these people shape education and try to infringe upon scienctific research. You're right, I should just sit back and shut up, I have no right to voice an opinion. I'm just intolerant and hateful for doing so.

 

"Never be a spectator to unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake. The grave will supply plenty of time for silence." - C. Hitchens

[dimreepr]

You're right, man. I'm such a nasty, hateful, spiteful person for having problems with the majority putting their thumb on me. I'm such a bitter and mean person for not smiling and keeping quiet while these wonderful people tell me I'm evil and try to sign my rights and the rights of others away into the law books. I'm so wrong for opposing how these people shape education and try to infringe upon scienctific research. You're right, I should just sit back and shut up, I have no right to voice an opinion. I'm just intolerant and hateful for doing so.

 

 

Yes I'm right, but not for these reasons.

 

"Never be a spectator to unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake. The grave will supply plenty of time for silence." - C. Hitchens

 

 

You're right, but yet again for very different reasons

[Tampitump]

 

Yes I'm right, but not for these reasons.

 

 

You're right, but yet again for very different reasons

Its exactly what you've been telling me this whole time. That I have hatred and intolerance in my heart because I won't put up with what these people do, what they believe, and their never-changing, insular, ignorance and stupidity. Smiling and being tolerant in an abusive relationship is only being compliant and accepting of circumstances you don't have to accept. These people do not think. They believe God is really on their side of this game. As long as one doesn't stir up a stink about it, they see no problem with what they do. They don't stop and think, "hey, maybe what I'm doing is having a negative effect on other people." As long as no one's complaining, they're just going to keep on with their stupid motions. They don't see depriving the rights of others as a bad thing. They see it as God's will.

 

Not a goddamn thing you say is worth a fucking nickel. "You're being intolerant and hateful toward these people." Fuck you!

[dimreepr]

"hey, maybe what I'm doing is having a negative effect on other people."

 

Only yourself.

[Itoero]

This whole idiotic position being spouted by Itoero is a massive case of population/sample bias. He cherry-picks the handful of negative deeds and ignores the multitudes of positive deeds.

 

Muslims do good in these same countries being ravaged by a tiny handful of terrorists. The white helmets of Syria featured last night on 60 Minutes are a quick and obvious example (or, counter example, to be more specific).

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-syria-white-helmets-hope-in-a-hopeless-place/

You are an ignorant liar.

[MonDie]

Look at what the TheBeardedDude did in post 224. That's the best attempt anyone has made on this thread to actually provide evidence, even though PCA is a poor method in this context, especially to look for confounders, and the data itself is of questionable quality. I imagine the reason why he hasn't explored it further, and certainly the reason i haven't yet, is that even quick and rough attempts like this take time.

 

I do appreciate TheBeardedDude's effort to add more information, but there is a lot of already available information on the cross societal correlations of popular religiosity. Alas, there are inevitably many lurking variables despite the efforts of researchers to remove the big ones, making the data useless without a hypothesis/theory as to why. That's why I'm looking at the psychology. As to the existing data, here is one that ydoaps mentioned a year or so ago. I don't know why it is no listed on pubmed.

 

Cross-national Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies.

http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.pdf

 

pubmed search negative

https://search.nih.gov/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&affiliate=nih&query=cross-national+correlates+of+quantifiable+societal+health+with+popular+religiosity+and+secularism&commit=Search

Secularism and popular religiosity are definitely different things. Secularism can be viewed as an appreciation of different perspectives rather than a rejection of all religious ideas. Again, this goes back to the question of whether competing religions actually represent mutually exclusive theories about the transcendent, or whether someone can simultaneously acknowledge some accuracy in various religions while identifying, or affiliating, with the their top choice.

Indeed, the idea of integrating religion into healthcare for psychological purposes, as you were advocating earlier, might seem like a secular idea as long as all religious views are represented (if that is possible). However, I watched an Atheist Experience in which they complained that incorporating religion into healthcare could mean forcing patients to reveal their religious views, which could then be used as a basis for discrimination. Apparently discrimination against atheists in a healthcare setting has been previously documented.

[_Rick_]

I think that throughout history religion has had a vast unifying effect that has ultimately pushed society forward.

[iNow]

You are an ignorant liar.

Why? What I shared was valid and true. What part do you believe is a lie?

 

It's trivially simple to find examples of Muslims doing good deeds.

[Tampitump]

 

Only yourself.

Go fuck yourself.

I think that throughout history religion has had a vast unifying effect that has ultimately pushed society forward.

and you're a lobotomized fucking moron.

[_Rick_]

Go fuck yourself.

and you're a lobotomized fucking moron.

 

oh boy good insult, I like the way you were unnecessarily aggressive and thus look like a cunt for no reason

 

read some history books before you argue that religion was not a positive force for the progression of the human race overall. Nowadays I guess it's different and it inhibits it, but certainly religious institutions in the past were a good thing.

[Itoero]

Itoero, I would like to see sources other than wiiislam.net, a site dedicated to criticizing Islam and muslims. If the articles include links to better sources, then please provide those sources.

 

https://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/wikiislam.net

Those statistics are never 100% correct but the general trend is correct.

the more Muslims in a country, the more criminality

 

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2016/05/21/belgium-35-of-prison-population-is-muslim-who-make-up-only-6-of-population/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11352268/What-is-going-wrong-in-Frances-prisons.html

http://islamineurope.blogspot.be/2008/02/muslim-population-in-european-prisons.html

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2011/12/muslims_in_spanish_prisons.html#fn1

http://indianexpress.com/article/explained/muslims-daliots-undertrials-in-prison-ncrb-3734362/

[Tampitump]

 

oh boy good insult, I like the way you were unnecessarily aggressive and thus look like a cunt for no reason

 

read some history books before you argue that religion was not a positive force for the progression of the human race overall. Nowadays I guess it's different and it inhibits it, but certainly religious institutions in the past were a good thing.

If you want a pissing contest on who can be the most unecessarily rude and aggressive, I'm here for you.

 

Medieval Erupope - Ruled by religion. Not a single societal or scientific advancement came out of it. Except, of course that which was done in defiance of it.

 

Renaissance and Enlightenment - BOOM! progress begins. Science moves forward.

 

EDIT: I'm sorry. Don't listen to me. I apologize dimreepr for telling you to go f*** yourself. Your stupidity is just that infuriating. Its grotesque and an affront to human reason and decency. Just know that.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Tampitump

[koti]

Well...I can assure everyone here that one thing is for sure. Tampitump is going to apologize to everyone in this thread in a couple of days as usual so be patient with him.

[_Rick_]

If you want a pissing contest on who can be the most unecessarily rude and aggressive, I'm here for you.

 

Medieval Erupope - Ruled by religion. Not a single societal or scientific advancement came out of it. Except, of course that which was done in defiance of it.

 

Renaissance and Enlightenment - BOOM! progress begins. Science moves forward.

 

EDIT: I'm sorry. Don't listen to me. I apologize dimreepr for telling you to go f*** yourself. Your stupidity is just that infuriating. Its grotesque and an affront to human reason and decency. Just know that.

 

Do you really feel like insulting people is any way to make yourself come across as anything apart from autistic and angry?

 

I'm an atheist myself, but in the past despite "hurr durr galen XD" ect. the Christian church (as just one example) was a unifying force across europe. They didn't provide much scientific enlightenment (funnily enough there's more to society than that), but without Catholicism europe would've been even more splintered than it was already.

[Prometheus]

I'm just amazed at how black and white some people think this all is, like the world can be split neatly between goodies and baddies. Maybe it's the Star Wars generation, there's the light and the dark side and nothing in between. A hefty dose Star Trek should help.

 

 

...why has terrorism become a problem all of a sudden - the Islamic doctrines certainly haven't changed in that time.

 

Because the terrorism/criminality caused by Muslims is on the rise. Those statistics are from before the European migrant crisis. Many millions of Muslims entered Europe, criminality will rise again. What happened in Germany is a 'nice' example of that.

 

In reply to my question 'why is A increasing', you have responded 'because A is increasing.' Can you really not see this? Do you really think that is a legitimate mode of reasoning (i'm presuming you value reason and evidence)? Is it a language thing - is my terminology or posting style ambiguous?

 

 

Medieval Erupope - Ruled by religion. Not a single societal or scientific advancement came out of it. Except, of course that which was done in defiance of it.

Renaissance and Enlightenment - BOOM! progress begins. Science moves forward.

 

There are many things wrong with this statement, but i want to focus on the cherry picking aspect since the theme is already well established.

 

Let's consider China - easily the equal of any European power throughout much of world history, superior to any civilisation for a fair bit of it - until the cultural revolution and the attempted to abolish religion.

 

As soon as religion goes, BOOM! Progress stops.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Prometheus

[Tampitump]

 

Do you really feel like insulting people is any way to make yourself come across as anything apart from autistic and angry?

 

 

You're right. Dimreepr is correct that I, personally, am a bad person. I'm objecting to his position that any misgivings about the religious and their ways is somehow "intolerant and hateful". THEY are intolerant and hateful.

[Itoero]

In reply to my question 'why is A increasing', you have responded 'because A is increasing.' Can you really not see this? Do you really think that is a legitimate mode of reasoning (i'm presuming you value reason and evidence)? Is it a language thing - is my terminology or posting style ambiguous?

So I have to give evidence for terrorism/criminality caused by Muslims is on the rise??? You know about ISIS right? And all the stuff caused by Muslims, unrelated to ISIS?

[Prometheus]

So I have to give evidence for terrorism/criminality caused by Muslims is on the rise??? You know about ISIS right? And all the stuff caused by Muslims, unrelated to ISIS?

 

We want to know whether Islam causes terrorism.

 

We have instances where Islam and terrorism occur together.

 

We also have instances where there is Islam and no terrorism, and instances where we have terrorism but no Islam.

 

Before i proceed further can i just check we are agreed on this?

[Tampitump]

I would like to apologize to dimreepr & -Rick- for the insults. I will try to practice some civility from here on.

 

I'm just an asshole plain and simple.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Tampitump

[dimreepr]

I would like to apologize to dimreepr & -Rick- for the insults. I will try to practice some civility from here on.

 

I'm just an asshole plain and simple.

 

Just angry, we all get angry now and then, now do you see the difference between anger and hate? You can be angry and tolerant, you can't be hateful and tolerant.

[Itoero]

We want to know whether Islam causes terrorism.

 

We have instances where Islam and terrorism occur together.

 

We also have instances where there is Islam and no terrorism, and instances where we have terrorism but no Islam.

 

Before i proceed further can i just check we are agreed on this?

Why do you do that? You very well know that islam forms a breeding ground which enables terrorism. That does not mean that every Muslim is a terrorist. Terrorism is a kind of criminality...

[Prometheus]

Why do you do that? You very well know that islam forms a breeding ground which enables terrorism. That does not mean that every Muslim is a terrorist. Terrorism is a kind of criminality...

 

Great, so you'd be happy to say that being Muslim is not a sufficient condition for being a terrorist (as not all Muslims are terrorists)? Nor is it a necessary condition (as not all terrorists are Muslim). Yes?

[Itoero]

Great, so you'd be happy to say that being Muslim is not a sufficient condition for being a terrorist (as not all Muslims are terrorists)? Nor is it a necessary condition (as not all terrorists are Muslim). Yes?

Of course not all terrorists are Muslim. Terrorism is a form of criminality unrelated to religion.

But you can't deny that most terrorists are Muslim.

[dimreepr]

But you can't deny that most terrorists are Muslim.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/omar-alnatour/muslims-are-not-terrorist_b_8718000.html

 

1. Non-Muslims make up the majority of terrorists in the United States: According to the FBI, 94% of terrorist attacks carried out in the United States from 1980 to 2005 have been by non-Muslims.

 

[Prometheus]

Of course not all terrorists are Muslim. Terrorism is a form of criminality unrelated to religion.

But you can't deny that most terrorists are Muslim.

 

As you might say: most Muslim terrorists are Muslim .

 

So if Islam isn't a sufficient nor necessary condition for terrorism then if Islam does contribute to terrorism the relationship isn't a simple A causes B type relationship. Agree or not?

 

 

But you can't deny that most terrorists are Muslim.

 

90% of US terrorists aren't Muslim.

 

 

This data from Europe shows a similar trend. And this data.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Prometheus