Itoero Posted December 20, 2016 Author Posted December 20, 2016 As you might say: most Muslim terrorists are Muslim . So if Islam isn't a sufficient nor necessary condition for terrorism then if Islam does contribute to terrorism the relationship isn't a simple A causes B type relationship. Agree or not? 90% of US terrorists aren't Muslim. This data from Europe shows a similar trend. And this data. It depends what you call terrorism. Terrorism is a form of criminality. And like I've said several times before, Islam forms a breeding ground for terrorism. So it's indeed not a simple causal relationship.
Prometheus Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 So it's indeed not a simple causal relationship. Then we are agreed: if there is a relationship it more subtle than A causes B. It's more like A increases B, but only when a certain quantity of C is present, unless a certain level of D is also present... and so on. Are we also agreed on this? Also did you want to retract your assertion that most terrorists are Muslim in light of the data dimreepr and i provided?
Strange Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 It depends what you call terrorism. Terrorism is a form of criminality. And like I've said several times before, Islam forms a breeding ground for terrorism. So you have moved the goalposts from "most terrorism are Muslim" to "Islam forms a breeding ground for terrorism". Do you have any evidence for that claim (the implication being that Islam is more of a breeding ground than any other cultural group). I have been exposed to terrorism for more than 5 decades. Very little of that was Islamic.
Prometheus Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 Very little of that was Islamic. Yes, i grew up with Irish Republican terrorism (IRA). But Itoero informs me he doesn't like anecdotes to support an opinion on this thread (fair enough), unless he is giving them of course. So here's the data. What do you reckon with the IRA - should that be classed as religiously inspired violence or as political separatist violence?
Strange Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 What do you reckon with the IRA - should that be classed as religiously inspired violence or as political separatist violence? It seems clearly political to me (even if you go back to William of Orange). The (modern) religious divide has been largely created (or at least, hugely exacerbated) by the political issues.
Itoero Posted December 20, 2016 Author Posted December 20, 2016 So you have moved the goalposts from "most terrorism are Muslim" to "Islam forms a breeding ground for terrorism". Do you have any evidence for that claim (the implication being that Islam is more of a breeding ground than any other cultural group). I have been exposed to terrorism for more than 5 decades. Very little of that was Islamic. No, my goalpost was from the beginning that Islam forms a breeding ground for terrorism. (or other criminality) I think I only said one time that most terrorists are Muslim...on this page...I'm sorry for saying that. Terrorism is criminality and many data show that the % of Muslims in the general population is in many countries lower then the % Muslims in prison. And the most gruesome terrorism comes mostly from Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_and_other_violent_events_by_death_toll#Terrorist_attacks Other cultural groups show terrorism but less.
dimreepr Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 (edited) No, my goalpost was from the beginning that Islam forms a breeding ground for terrorism. (or other criminality) I think I only said one time that most terrorists are Muslim...on this page...I'm sorry for saying that. Terrorism is criminality and many data show that the % of Muslims in the general population is in many countries lower then the % Muslims in prison. And the most gruesome terrorism comes mostly from Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_and_other_violent_events_by_death_toll#Terrorist_attacks Other cultural groups show terrorism but less. http://terrorism.about.com/od/causes/a/causes_terror.htm All terrorist acts are motivated by two things: Social and political injustice: People choose terrorism when they are trying to right what they perceive to be a social or political or historical wrong—when they have been stripped of their land or rights, or denied these. The belief that violence or its threat will be effective, and usher in change. Another way of saying this is: the belief that violent means justify the ends. Many terrorists in history said sincerely that they chose violence after long deliberation, because they felt they had no choice. This explanation of the causes of terrorism may be difficult to swallow. It sounds too simple, or too theoretical. However, if you look at any group that is widely understood as a terrorist group, you will find these two elements are basic to their story. Edited December 20, 2016 by dimreepr
Itoero Posted December 21, 2016 Author Posted December 21, 2016 Social and political injustice: People choose terrorism when they are trying to right what they perceive to be a social or political or historical wrongwhen they have been stripped of their land or rights, or denied these.Religion causes social/political injustice or makes people believe there is social/political injustice. There are of course other things which can cause social/political injustice. Also, Islam terrorism works internationally...are there other terroristic groups that work internationally?
MonDie Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) Dimreeper might have a point. Christianity is the dominant religion in the Western world. We have seen Planned Parenthood clinics harassed, for example, but maybe there isn't as much pro-life or pro-Christian terrorism because a lot of these movements are utilizing the legal infrastructure rather than committing crimes against it. The Christian Coalition and the National Right to Life Committee both fell in the top 10 of the most powerful interest groups in US politics when Fortune magazine released its "Power 5" several years back. Money is power. edit: "Power 25" Edited December 21, 2016 by MonDie
dimreepr Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) Religion causes social/political injustice or makes people believe there is social/political injustice. There are of course other things which can cause social/political injustice. . https://www.facebook.com/LBC/videos/10154580627641558/ Also, Islam terrorism works internationally...are there other terroristic groups that work internationally? The internet provides an international audience, but fear is the goal of all terrorists, because fear creates hate and when the two combine, logic and reason are just dirty words. Edited December 21, 2016 by dimreepr
MonDie Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 Do you really feel like insulting people is any way to make yourself come across as anything apart from autistic and angry? I just wanted to say that I down-voted this post for using a medical syndrome to denote a deficit that is only part of that syndrome.
Strange Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 Religion causes social/political injustice or makes people believe there is social/political injustice. There are of course other things which can cause social/political injustice. Mainly political systems (corrupt or incompetent governments, for example). Also, Islam terrorism works internationally...are there other terroristic groups that work internationally? What? Really? The IRA famously worked in at least two countries (as well as doing a significant amount of fund-raising and lobbying in the USA). And most of the other terrorist groups when I was young (mainly radical left-wing groups) operated throughout Europe. A better question might be if there are any terrorist groups that only operate in one country?
zapatos Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 A better question might be if there are any terrorist groups that only operate in one country? Indeed. I imagine the number of countries that terrorist groups operate in is directly related to where they perceive their enemies to be.
Strange Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 Don't they cross the French-Spanish border? But I don't know if they have ever made any attacks in France...
Itoero Posted December 22, 2016 Author Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Indeed. I imagine the number of countries that terrorist groups operate in is directly related to where they perceive their enemies to be.And Muslims seem to think there enemies are everywhere. You find terrorism caused by Islam extremism in Africa, Asia, Europe, North Middle South America and Australia. Edited December 22, 2016 by Itoero
dimreepr Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 And Muslims seem to think there enemies are everywhere. You find terrorism caused by Islam extremism in Africa, Asia, Europe, North Middle South America and Australia. No, Islam extremism is caused by injustice and oppression. So: " You find terrorism caused by the result of Islam extremism" FTFY
Itoero Posted December 22, 2016 Author Posted December 22, 2016 No, Islam extremism is caused by injustice and oppression. So: " You find terrorism caused by the result of Islam extremism" FTFYWoW
dimreepr Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 Is there a problem, or should I say thank you?
dimreepr Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 Then, thank you; just a thought, the old green arrow is another, better, way to show your appreciation.
zapatos Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 No, Islam extremism is caused by injustice and oppression. So: " You find terrorism caused by the result of Islam extremism" FTFY While I generally agree with your assertion, I think it would be more accurate to say that "extremism is caused by perceived injustice and oppression". Some extremists are manipulated, and others are outraged by the injustice and oppression that white males are suffering under in the United States.
koti Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 No, Islam extremism is caused by injustice and oppression. So: " You find terrorism caused by the result of Islam extremism" FTFY I have to say wow too dimreepr. Am I right to assume that according to you there is no corelation between islamic extremism and islamic religion?
dimreepr Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 While I generally agree with your assertion, I think it would be more accurate to say that "extremism is caused by perceived injustice and oppression". What caused that perception? It must have been quite easy to perceive to drive them to such depraved violence. Some extremists are manipulated, and others are outraged by the injustice and oppression that white males are suffering under in the United States. Indeed, but in order for that manipulation to be effective, they must share that perception, all-be-it a less obvious perception. I have to say wow too dimreepr. Am I right to assume that according to you there is no corelation between islamic extremism and islamic religion? Of course not, you need to brush up on your comprehension skills. I'm saying that some people that are being oppressed are Islamic; the other 99% of the people who are also Islamic, don't drink, say their prayers and are charitable, because they use the book properly; it's hardly fair to claim they are responsible for those who are so repressed and desperate for change, that they torture it's meaning to suit their needs.
iNow Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 Islam is just an easy scapegoat for the simple minded and bigoted among us. There is extremism carried out in the name of the religion, but given that there are 1.6 BILLION muslims on earth and maybe about 200,000 terrorist total, even if every single one of them were Muslim that'd still only be less than 0.01%
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