Would the world be a better place without religion?

[Lasse]

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

896 replies to a question whose answer is simply yes... 

This can not be true. 

90+ % of humanity has religious thoughts ( note that atheism and agnostics is a form of religion) 

There are ca 10 000 religions and 84% of humanity affiliated at some level to the 5 largest religions (wiki).

If you recognize this pattern including the past, over 100 billion humans have existed with spiritual thoughts in mind. Check the creation of all of them (tools, houses, art, family, culture...) and try to see how insignificant war and the negative impact of spiritualism (often misleaded by human factors ) is in comparison to that. 

I think when we try to determine is it good or bad to have religions we should evaluate it on the right scale without our subjective personal belief. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Lasse

[koti]

52 minutes ago, Lasse said:

This can not be true. 

90+ % of humanity has religious thoughts ( note that atheism and agnostics is a form of religion)  

So if religious people, agnostics and atheists are in the 90% where are the remaining 10%? Your’e making as much sense as a statement that boldness is a hair color <— so much for atheism being a form of religion.

Props to @iNow for the boldness hair color.

Edited April 2, 2018 by koti

[Prometheus]

1 hour ago, Lasse said:

...( note that atheism and agnostics is a form of religion) 

As a Buddhist who doesn't believe in god(s) that must mean that i have at least two religions then.

[koti]

3 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

As a Buddhist who doesn't believe in god(s) that must mean that i have at least two religions then.

Where is the line between religion and a moral/ethical/philosophical framework? Couldn’t we just put you on an atheist shelf? 

[Strange]

2 hours ago, Lasse said:

note that atheism and agnostics is a form of religion

Right. And not being interested in golf is a sport.

And, the more I think about this, the more I want to go "AAaaasrghhhh!!!"

It is such a stupid statement, I can't believe people keep making it.

It is actually even more stupid than claiming science is a religion. At least people "do" science. You don't "do" atheism any more than you "do" not-playing-golf.

"What are you doing today?"

"Not playing golf"

"Again! You must be really good at it by now"

p.s. I know there are some people who go to Atheist Churches, but they are oxymorons.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Strange

[koti]

13 minutes ago, Strange said:

Right. And not being interested in golf is a sport.

And, the more I think about this, the more I want to go "AAaaasrghhhh!!!"

It is such a stupid statement, I can't believe people keep making it.

It is actually even more stupid than claiming science is a religion. At least people "do" science. You don't "do" atheism any more than you "do" not-playing-golf.

"What are you doing today?"

"Not playing golf"

"Again! You must be really good at it by now"

p.s. I know there are some people who go to Atheist Churches, but they are oxymorons.

Even if you succeed at convincing someone bound by religion of this, you're gonna get a quick "So you believe in nothing right?!" attacking you for not being capable of morals. It's the very definition of pigeon chess.

[Lasse]

25 minutes ago, Strange said:

It is such a stupid statement, I can't believe people keep making it.

 

25 minutes ago, Strange said:

It is actually even more stupid than claiming science is a religion. At least people "do" science. You don't "do" atheism any more than you "do" not-playing-golf

The question here what is religion and my understanding is that religions are simply believe systems about the individuals existence what science can not described.  

You mean atheist DO not BELIEVE that there is NO God, they know it? What proves this?

Your statement is claiming that atheists do not have to think to come to the conclusion that they do not believe in God. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Lasse

[koti]

13 minutes ago, Lasse said:

 

You mean atheist DO not BELIEVE that there is NO God, they know it? What proves this?

Your statement is claiming that atheists do not have to think to come to the conclusion that they do not believe in God. 

Science does not deal with beliefs, it deals with evidence. There is equally no evidence for god/gods as there is for pink unicorns. His statement claims that not playing golf is not a sport and not that atheists do not have to think to come to conclusions, stop the strawman for ffs. 

[Strange]

38 minutes ago, Lasse said:

You mean atheist DO not BELIEVE that there is NO God, they know it? What proves this?

Not believing (or caring) about something is not a belief. 

Like not playing (or caring) about golf IS NOT A SPORT.  Sheesh.

Quote

Your statement is claiming that atheists do not have to think to come to the conclusion that they do not believe in God.

What is there to think about? How much time do you spend thinking about whether there is an invisible pink unicorn watching your every move?

I assume many (most?) people who do believe in a god or gods never think about it either. They just believe.

And then there are some who think about their faith. And, presumably, some who think about their lack of faith.

But you don't have faith because you have looked at the evidence and thought about it. That wouldn't be faith (in my book).

38 minutes ago, Lasse said:

The question here what is religion and my understanding is that religions are simply believe systems about the individuals existence what science can not described. 

That is a pretty broad definition. It would include a lot of things that many people wouldn't consider to be religions. But if you think that materialism or logical positivism or utilitarianism are religions then ... well, good luck to you. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Strange

[Raider5678]

28 minutes ago, koti said:

Even if you succeed at convincing someone bound by religion of this, you're gonna get a quick "So you believe in nothing right?!" attacking you for not being capable of morals.

1

You seem to have it in your mind that the goals of us Christians are to go out and tell everyone how wrong they are.

It's not.

 

25 minutes ago, Lasse said:

 

The question here what is religion and my understanding is that religions are simply believe systems about the individuals existence what science can not described.  

You mean atheist DO not BELIEVE that there is NO God, they know it? What proves this?

Your statement is claiming that atheists do not have to think to come to the conclusion that they do not believe in God. 

If your belief is that there is no God, because you KNOW it, then you have a belief system.

Why?

Because you can't disprove God using science. And since you can't, you have to use faith to believe that there is no God. Since you're using faith, you now have a belief system.

 

If your position is that you simply don't know if there is/isn't a God because there's no evidence for you to either way, then you don't have a belief system.

 

 

[koti]

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

You seem to have it in your mind that the goals of us Christians are to go out and tell everyone how wrong they are.

It's not.

 

Thats good to hear, now listen to this;

I despise your dillusion as a Christian and everything that comes with it. Your irrational and harmful attempts at making the bible look like a moral beacon, your blindness to how harmful and double faced religions (including Christianity) are. Christian priests are getting away with raping 11 years olds in Poland as Im writing this (hey, its Easter, let everyone rejoice)
I despise your attitude with all my heart and I couldn't care less what your Christian goals are or whether you tell me if I'm wrong or right. 

[Raider5678]

Just now, koti said:

Thats good to hear, now listen to this;

I despise your dillusion as a Christian and everything that comes with it. Your irrational and harmful attempts at making the bible look like a moral beacon, your blindness to how harmful and double faced religions (including Christianity) are. Christian priests are getting away with raping 11 years olds in Poland as Im writing this (hey, its Easter, let everyone rejoice)
I despise your attitude with all my heart and I couldn't care less what your Christian goals are or whether you tell me if I'm wrong or right. 

The actions of the "Christian" Pharisees were condemned by Jesus. And I get the feeling he'd condemn the same "Christian" priests that are getting away with raping 11-year-olds in Poland.

2 minutes ago, koti said:

I despise your attitude with all my heart

 

And why don't you tell me my attitude?

[koti]

Just now, Raider5678 said:

The actions of the "Christian" Pharisees were condemned by Jesus. And I get the feeling he'd condemn the same "Christian" priests that are getting away with raping 11-year-olds in Poland.

Condemned by Jesus? You can tell that to your fellow dillusionists at Sunday mass today to feel all warm and cosy inside but don’t expect me to react in any other way than vomiting. Tell that Jesus condemned child rape to the parents of the children who were raped by Christian priests in a village in Poland. I hope you wake up Raider, the sooner the better. Its gonna cost you a whole lot to do so but its worth it.

[Raider5678]

9 minutes ago, koti said:

Condemned by Jesus? You can tell that to your fellow dillusionists at Sunday mass today to feel all warm and cosy inside but don’t expect me to react in any other way than vomiting. Tell that Jesus condemned child rape to the parents of the children who were raped by Christian priests in a village in Poland. I hope you wake up Raider, the sooner the better. Its gonna cost you a whole lot to do so but its worth it.

2

I wasn't always a Christian.

9 minutes ago, koti said:

Condemned by Jesus? You can tell that to your fellow dillusionists at Sunday mass 

1

I don't have Sunday mass.

 

And I can say that because they were.

 

 

Edit: upvoted to counteract the negative rep. 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Raider5678

[dimreepr]

10 minutes ago, koti said:

Condemned by Jesus? You can tell that to your fellow dillusionists at Sunday mass today to feel all warm and cosy inside but don’t expect me to react in any other way than vomiting. Tell that Jesus condemned child rape to the parents of the children who were raped by Christian priests in a village in Poland. I hope you wake up Raider, the sooner the better. Its gonna cost you a whole lot to do so but its worth it.

"You're conflating politics with atheism, the other extreme conflates politics with theism. 

However, you're extreme is more ignorant."

This was my reply to Shauno (I think that's the spelling) a rampant theist, please don't be the other extreme, not as ignorant but... 

You must know that pedophilia exists outside of a religious setting, a gymnastics coach for instance. 

Don't condemn Raider and his fellows for believing in Jesus (his/her name may/may not be Jesus but someone clearly started it) and getting a warm fuzzy feeling, since I'm sure they'd be happy to accept, you don't.

4 hours ago, Lasse said:

This can not be true. 

90+ % of humanity has religious thoughts ( note that atheism and agnostics is a form of religion) 

There are ca 10 000 religions and 84% of humanity affiliated at some level to the 5 largest religions (wiki).

If you recognize this pattern including the past, over 100 billion humans have existed with spiritual thoughts in mind. Check the creation of all of them (tools, houses, art, family, culture...) and try to see how insignificant war and the negative impact of spiritualism (often misleaded by human factors ) is in comparison to that. 

I think when we try to determine is it good or bad to have religions we should evaluate it on the right scale without our subjective personal belief. 

A classic case of trying to justify a belief you can't explain, by accusing others of having the same/similar belief. In the playground it goes something like this "I know I am but what are you ".  

[koti]

19 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Don't condemn Raider and his fellows for believing in Jesus (his/her name may/may not be Jesus but someone clearly started it) and getting a warm fuzzy feeling, since I'm sure they'd be happy to accept, you don't.

Yeah well, I'd rather be miserable (which I'm not) but true to my conscience than warm and cozy submerged in a dillusion. Gymnastic coaches do not preach morality for the past 2 millenia by the way, how is it that you don't see this and keep making these analogies to try to paint church atrocities with lighter colors is beyond me. 

We had a similar discussion more than a year ago about Islam, you kept avoiding a straigh up answer to my grind with apostates being put to death as in the islamic doctrine. Just like Raider is avoiding any coherent discussion about the Skeptics Annotated Bible containing atrocitity uppon atrocity. Either start refuting those with coherent, rational arguments or admit that you’re both taking a side of a viscious gang which promotes rape and slavery. There is a third option of distancing yourselves from the gang ofcourse and I sincerely hope you will take it.

Edited April 2, 2018 by koti

[dimreepr]

27 minutes ago, koti said:

Yeah well, I'd rather be miserable (which I'm not) but true to my conscience than warm and cozy submerged in a dillusion. Gymnastic coaches do not preach morality for the past 2 millenia by the way, how is it that you don't see this and keep making these analogies to try to paint church atrocities with lighter colors is beyond me. 

I'm simply trying to suggest that neither extreme makes sense and that you and raider are equally welcome to your warm and cozy moments and that neither of you actually needs a god, to do so, either way.

Edited April 2, 2018 by dimreepr

[Raider5678]

12 minutes ago, koti said:

to paint church atrocities with lighter colors is beyond me. 

 

Ah, in which case perhaps I should start listing all the bad things Atheists have done, and then complain about how you trying to paint the crimes of "atheism" in lighter colors is beyond me.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Raider5678

[Strange]

1 hour ago, koti said:

I despise your dillusion as a Christian

And I despise this sort of bigotry.

But there you go, we all have to live with each other despite our faults.

[Prometheus]

1 hour ago, koti said:

Where is the line between religion and a moral/ethical/philosophical framework? Couldn’t we just put you on an atheist shelf? 

Probably the cultural baggage that comes with the moral/ethical/philosophical framework, which can be both a help and a hindrance. Put me in whichever shelf you like, it's all good. 

 

1 hour ago, Lasse said:

The question here what is religion and my understanding is that religions are simply believe systems about the individuals existence what science can not described.  

So those who believe Tupac and Biggy Smalls are off living on an island somewhere are religious? Because that conspiracy theory is pretty sophisticated and not based on evidence: exactly how you are defining religion. If you are happy to accept conspiracy theory as a religion and you can't see how useless a definition that is then there is nothing a rational person can say. If you agree that such conspiracy theories are obviously not religions then it is only rational to agree atheism is not a religion.

 

3 hours ago, koti said:

Science does not deal with beliefs, it deals with evidence.

I'd disagree slightly: science deals with evidence which (rational) humans use to inform their beliefs. It's still a belief, just one backed up with evidence and reason. But the fact it is a belief does not make it the equal of religious beliefs.

kk

1 hour ago, Lasse said:

You mean atheist DO not BELIEVE that there is NO God, they know it? What proves this?

Your statement is claiming that atheists do not have to think to come to the conclusion that they do not believe in God.

All you have to do is think for something to be classed a religion now? Insane. Childish is really the only way to describe it.

Merely 'having a belief' about the existence of something is possibly the most useless definition of religion i have come across.

If everything i believe is a religion i follow several million religions now.

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

I’m closing this for now to give everyone a chance to breath. A reminder that we don’t allow insulting groups of people, and this of course goes for those that adhere to religious doctrine.