Would the world be a better place without religion?

[Tampitump]

I look forward to the day when saying "my faith is very important to me" is considered a laughable statement to the overwhelming majority of human civilization, while saying "evidence is very important to me" is the norm and is treated with praise.

 

I also look forward to the day when belief in the God of Abraham is treated with as much seriousness by the majority of humanity as the belief in Poseidon currently is.

[Memammal]

I do believe there is good in Christianity - if it causes people to soul search and repent from wrongdoing then that can't be bad

Only I am not convinced that there is a correlation between Christianity and an improvement in the values or morals (by committing less crime) within societies. On the contrary, conservative religious people are more inclined to support corporal punishment, homophobic legislation, death penalties among others, while at the same time not care much about global warming or large scale pandemics (e.g. HIV/Aids).

 

Which one?

Magical Mystery Tour.

[DrP]

Only I am not convinced that there is a correlation between Christianity and an improvement in the values or morals (by committing less crime) within societies. On the contrary, conservative religious people are more inclined to support corporal punishment, homophobic legislation, death penalties among others, while at the same time not care much about global warming or large scale pandemics (e.g. HIV/Aids).

 

 

I think it has helped bring us up to a point... but as with most things we know/knew we are progressing/have progressed beyond the point where our old views aren't good enough any more and it all needs re assessing with a level head.

[dimreepr]

I look forward to the day when saying "my faith is very important to me" is considered a laughable statement to the overwhelming majority of human civilization, while saying "evidence is very important to me" is the norm and is treated with praise.

 

I also look forward to the day when belief in the God of Abraham is treated with as much seriousness by the majority of humanity as the belief in Poseidon currently is.

 

 

So you want to march cheerfully into this utopia by denying the personal solace that belief brings to millions of innocents and demand your idea is better than theirs?

But before you do that answer this:

when a religion is well understood, and the people are content, fear has no place and no one is afraid of the consequences, but when it isn't well understood and no-one is content fear is everywhere and no one is safe.

How does atheism provide the former and avoid the latter?

You may not like the concept of religion, but don't let secular dogma blind you to the potential that the bible may contain something, that atheism doesn't understand, otherwise you're just creating a new religion with none of the wisdom.

[Itoero]

when a religion is well understood, and the people are content, fear has no place and no one is afraid of the consequences, but when it isn't well understood and no-one is content fear is everywhere and no one is safe.

Can you give an example of this?

And when is a religion well understood?

How does atheism provide the former and avoid the latter?

You clearly misunderstand atheism.

[dimreepr]

Can you give an example of this?

 

Look around you.

 

And when is a religion well understood?

 

When it's relevant to it's culture.

 

You clearly misunderstand atheism.

 

 

Please explain how, I misunderstand, and how this answers my question?

Edited November 25, 2016 by dimreepr

[Itoero]

Look around you.

There is hardly any religion where I live. The fact that you see a decline of religion in well faring and peaceful countries while wars and famine cause a rise in religion, should give you an idea of what religion is really about.

 

When it's relevant to it's culture.

And what if you are a Christian in an islam-village?

Please explain how, I misunderstand, and how this answers my question?

You have this idea that you need religion to be completely moral or 'at peace'. Atheism is the lack of a believe in deities, it has nothing to do with being content or fearful.

[dimreepr]

The fact that you see a decline of religion in well faring and peaceful countries while wars and famine cause a rise in religion.

 

How does those well faring peaceful countries deal with fear?

 

You have this idea that you need religion to be completely moral or 'at peace'.

 

No I don't, please show where I stipulate this?

 

Atheism is the lack of a believe in deities,

 

 

Exactly, but that doesn't mean it won't create belief.

 

it has nothing to do with being content or fearful.

 

 

Again, exactly; the absence of which is why we need religion.

 

 

And what if you are a Christian in an islam-village?

 

There seems little difference to a christian in an atheist village

Edited November 25, 2016 by dimreepr

[Prometheus]

It is strange that we spend so much time teaching people so many things- except contentment. Like most things it comes naturally to some, but the rest of us have to learn. It is perhaps a more subtle skill to acquire but no less important for it.

[DrP]

 

 

Again, exactly; the absence of which is why we need religion.

 

 

 

 

Or just better education...

[dimreepr]

 

Or just better education...

 

 

I agree, if that better education address's my point.

It is strange that we spend so much time teaching people so many things- except contentment. Like most things it comes naturally to some, but the rest of us have to learn. It is perhaps a more subtle skill to acquire but no less important for it.

 

 

It's anomalous because, it seems, everyone conflates contentment with happiness; so, it seems, everyone chooses the wrong vessel to fill.

[Itoero]

How does those well faring peaceful countries deal with fear?

 

 

No I don't, please show where I stipulate this?

If you assume that you need religion to deal with fear then you think you need religion to be 'at peace'.

 

Again, exactly; the absence of which is why we need religion.

No. A good education normally suffices.

Religion does not create ethical frameworks. It teaches ethics which have evolved through natural processes.

 

There seems little difference to a christian in an atheist village

Atheists are generally very tolerant towards religion...moslims not so much I think.

[dimreepr]

If you assume that you need religion to deal with fear then you think you need religion to be 'at peace'.

 

Why?

Atheists are generally very tolerant towards religion...moslims not so much I think.

 

Atheists generally dismiss religion, Muslims generally are religious; what exactly is your point?

[Itoero]

Atheists generally dismiss religion, Muslims generally are religious; what exactly is your point?

Atheists are (most of them) not religious, but they don't dismiss religion.

Most of us are very tolerant. In very secular countries in Europe, you see a lot of moslim immigrants.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Itoero

[Tampitump]

 

 

So you want to march cheerfully into this utopia by denying the personal solace that belief brings to millions of innocents and demand your idea is better than theirs?

 

But before you do that answer this:

 

when a religion is well understood, and the people are content, fear has no place and no one is afraid of the consequences, but when it isn't well understood and no-one is content fear is everywhere and no one is safe.

How does atheism provide the former and avoid the latter?

 

You may not like the concept of religion, but don't let secular dogma blind you to the potential that the bible may contain something, that atheism doesn't understand, otherwise you're just creating a new religion with none of the wisdom.

word salad.

[dimreepr]

word salad.

 

 

Please explain?

[Tampitump]

 

 

Please explain?

Pretty much nothing you said was a rebuttal to anything I said. I don't claim that atheism offers anything to replace religion ideologically. But I still think our world would be much better if it slowly dropped religion. For example, the reasons people give for denying scientific facts like evolution are almost entirely religious. And since one need not subscribe to fairy stories or metaphyisical beliefs in order to live happily or morally, I see religion as being little more than a roadblock to civilizational progress at this point. Atheism is a useless term. The only thing being atheist guarantees is that one won't believe in deities. It offers no beliefs or ideologies. Religion adds nothing new to the table. The only good lessons it teaches are basic, general, universal things that existed before the composition of it's fairytales, and which can be understood and applied without believing in the metaphysics. The rest of religion is based on antiquated concepts, such as tribalism and worship of lords, that are of no moral or intellectual value to the modern human species.

[Memammal]

So you want to march cheerfully into this utopia by denying the personal solace that belief brings to millions of innocents and demand your idea is better than theirs?

 

But before you do that answer this:

 

when a religion is well understood, and the people are content, fear has no place and no one is afraid of the consequences, but when it isn't well understood and no-one is content fear is everywhere and no one is safe.

How does atheism provide the former and avoid the latter?

You may not like the concept of religion, but don't let secular dogma blind you to the potential that the bible may contain something, that atheism doesn't understand, otherwise you're just creating a new religion with none of the wisdom.

@ dimreepr: You are stuck on this perception of yours, which is a fallacy. You somehow argue and condone the fact that religion, which AFAIK you previously acknowledged to be based on false & flawed premises, is the only way to bring contentment and avoid being fearful. I think it was previously argued to be the only way to find purpose in life. You are further implying that "secular dogma" and/or atheism seemingly:

- Are the only alternatives to religious dogma and therefore have to fill a particular void;

- But cannot provide contentment, or take away fear, or give purpose in life;

- And may blind people to the potential that the Bible may contain something.

 

This line of reasoning is utterly absurd, as if it is perfectly OK for religious people to live in a 2,000 year old fantasy world and succumb to religious brain washing in order to ensure contentment, lack of fear and a purpose in life; as if there is nothing else to fill said void.

 

Just so that we are clear:

Secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people. Another manifestation of secularism is the view that public activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be uninfluenced by religious beliefs and/or practices.

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

​

Nobody here (I think) is insisting that religion has to be washed from the earth in one sweeping move. What I personally would like to see is for organised religion and its huge influence to be scaled down and for its stronghold on governments and societies (especially i.t.o. education) to be brought down to size. Organised religion should preferably, with time, be transformed to a personal religion/spirituality opposed to be paraded around in the public sphere where it only serves to strengthen an environmental influence that is far too perilous for the advancement of society...an "utopian" society in which humans will be free to find contentment, purpose and wisdom on their own terms. After all, it is said that wisdom is to be found where belief and facts meet each other. There cannot be wisdom in a false reality.

[dimreepr]

@ dimreepr: You are stuck on this perception of yours, which is a fallacy. You somehow argue and condone the fact that religion, which AFAIK you previously acknowledged to be based on false & flawed premises, is the only way to bring contentment and avoid being fearful. I think it was previously argued to be the only way to find purpose in life. You are further implying that "secular dogma" and/or atheism seemingly:

- Are the only alternatives to religious dogma and therefore have to fill a particular void;

- But cannot provide contentment, or take away fear, or give purpose in life;

- And may blind people to the potential that the Bible may contain something.

 

 

 

I have have never argued the bible is the only means to find contentment and or a purpose in life, I'm living proof that it's possible.

 

I do however argue that currently secularism has yet to find a way; brexit and Trump wouldn't happen in a content fearless society.

 

It does seem to have blinded you and tantitump to the possibility that some people, millions in fact, do find a purpose and contentment in their religions.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead

 

 

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

 

Nietzsche believed that the majority of people did not recognize this death out of the deepest-seated fear or angst. Therefore, when the death did begin to become widely acknowledged, people would despair and nihilism would become rampant.

 

Pretty much nothing you said was a rebuttal to anything I said.

 

Ditto... The only difference is, I never attempted a rebuttal.

 

I don't claim that atheism offers anything to replace religion ideologically. But I still think our world would be much better if it slowly dropped religion.

 

 

If you can't offer anything to replace religious ideology, then why would the world be a better place?

 

It seems to me the opposite would be true, simply because of the millions that are currently quite content with their belief, you'd just add them to those that aren't.

 

But I still think our world would be much better if it slowly dropped religion. For example, the reasons people give for denying scientific facts like evolution are almost entirely religious.

 

 

I don't like them insisting that it be taught in mainstream education; otherwise why do they have to agree? It won't change the truth of evolution.

 

And since one need not subscribe to fairy stories or metaphyisical beliefs in order to live happily or morally,

 

 

Again, how do you know? I have found contentment, this may seem counter intuitive, but since I have yet to explain it to others, I can't be sure. Buddhism has done the best job of trying to exclude a deity to show the path, but even that has descended into a form of religious dogma.

 

Atheism is a useless term. The only thing being atheist guarantees is that one won't believe in deities. It offers no beliefs or ideologies.

 

 

Ok lets go with secularism, the semantics are unimportant, are you sure about that highlighted sentence, given this thread?

 

The only good lessons it teaches are basic, general, universal things that existed before the composition of it's fairytales, and which can be understood and applied without believing in the metaphysics.

 

 

If that's the case you'll, no doubt, have plenty of examples.

[Memammal]

I do however argue that currently secularism has yet to find a way; brexit and Trump wouldn't happen in a content fearless society.

 

It does seem to have blinded you and tantitump to the possibility that some people, millions in fact, do find a purpose and contentment in their religions.

Maybe you should read the last two paragraphs of my post #118 (again)..? Brexit & Trump being slumped on secularism...now that is a stretch.

[dimreepr]

Maybe you should read the last two paragraphs of my post #118 (again)..? Brexit & Trump being slumped on secularism...now that is a stretch.

 

It would be if I had actually said that.

 

As for the last paragraph that you urged me to re-read; I don't disagree with your aim/goal (need I remind you that I'm an atheist).

 

There cannot be wisdom in a false reality.

 

 

But then this, How are the various bibles not real? But more importantly it proves my point, in that you dismiss any potential wisdom out of hand and insist we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Tampitump]

Dimreepr, atheism doesn't offer a replacement ideology, but the basic moral precepts are already here independent from religion, and independent from atheism. Just because they don't originate from atheism doesn't mean they're not here. We already have these basic values, they exist indepenent of religion and atheism. Its just that religion, to my mind, makes them worse by lumping in dogma and superstition. We don't need the fairy stories. We already have the morals. Belief in the metaphysics and divinity of ancient books is unnecessary, and harmful in my view.

 

If I were to name something that could and should replace religion as a moral code, it would be secular humanism. We are all humanists most of the time. Most of us live our daily lives as humanists, but our minds still get vitiated by religious bullshit.

 

Now please take the time to read this carefully before you reply. You'll see that I've addressed everything you've brought up.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Tampitump

[dimreepr]

Dimreepr, atheism doesn't offer a replacement ideology, but the basic moral precepts are already here independent from religion, and independent from atheism. Just because they don't originate from atheism doesn't mean they're not here. We already have these basic values, they exist indepenent of religion and atheism. Its just that religion, to my mind, makes them worse by lumping in dogma and superstition. We don't need the fairy stories. We already have the morals. Belief in the metaphysics and divinity of ancient books is unnecessary, and harmful in my view.

 

If I were to name something that could and should replace religion as a moral code, it would be secular humanism. We are all humanists most of the time. Most of us live our daily lives as humanists, but our minds still get vitiated by religious bullshit.

 

Now please take the time to read this carefully before you reply. You'll see that I've addressed everything you've brought up.

 

 

How many times do I have to debunk the idea that religion is trying to teach or guide our morals?

 

And since this post is entirely predicated on that point, I don't see how you've addressed anything I've brought up.

Please read carefully...

It's just as wrong to conflate morals with contentment as it is to conflate happiness with contentment.

[Tampitump]

 

 

How many times do I have to debunk the idea that religion is trying to teach or guide our morals?

 

And since this post is entirely predicated on that point, I don't see how you've addressed anything I've brought up.

 

Please read carefully...

 

It's just as wrong to conflate morals with contentment as it is to conflate happiness with contentment.

God, the people on this forum can dream up some whoppers.

[dimreepr]

God, the people on this forum can dream up some whoppers.

 

 

FFS that's another irony meter buggered.