Itoero Posted November 26, 2016 Author Posted November 26, 2016 But then this, How are the various bibles not real? But more importantly it proves my point, in that you dismiss any potential wisdom out of hand and insist we throw the baby out with the bathwater.I don't understand why an atheist gives the bible such an elevated position. There are countless other books with wisdom...so what's special about the bible?
dimreepr Posted November 26, 2016 Posted November 26, 2016 I don't understand why an atheist gives the bible such an elevated position. There are countless other books with wisdom...so what's special about the bible? There's nothing special about the bibles, other than what they seek to teach. As an example please read 'The Pearl' by John Steinbeck. Kino, the novella's protagonist, is a young Mexican-Indian pearl diver married to Juana; they have a baby named Coyotito. Their lives seem rather peaceful, but their tranquility is threatened when a scorpion bites Coyotito.
Itoero Posted November 26, 2016 Author Posted November 26, 2016 There's nothing special about the bibles, other than what they seek to teach.If there are many other books that teach morals, then what's special about the teachings of the bible? You said forgiveness is something the bible teaches, yet the main story in the NT teaches you can't have forgiveness without a (human) sacrifice.
dimreepr Posted November 26, 2016 Posted November 26, 2016 If there are many other books that teach morals, then what's special about the teachings of the bible? You said forgiveness is something the bible teaches, yet the main story in the NT teaches you can't have forgiveness without a (human) sacrifice. Not again FFS.
Itoero Posted November 26, 2016 Author Posted November 26, 2016 You said forgiveness is something the bible teaches, yet the main story in the NT teaches you can't have forgiveness without a (human) sacrifice.
dimreepr Posted November 26, 2016 Posted November 26, 2016 You said forgiveness is something the bible teaches, yet the main story in the NT teaches you can't have forgiveness without a (human) sacrifice. Does it? I forgave my mother for her indifference toward me; no sacrifice required, human or otherwise.
Itoero Posted November 26, 2016 Author Posted November 26, 2016 Does it? I forgave my mother for her indifference toward me; no sacrifice required, human or otherwise. The story goes that God sacrificed Jesus for the sins of mankind.
Tampitump Posted November 26, 2016 Posted November 26, 2016 (edited) Dimreepr, I'm impressed by your goal-post moving tactics, and your unsupported assertions. Religion doesn't offer teachings or guidance on morality? Wtf? That's like the main thing it tries to do. The story goes that God sacrificed Jesus for the sins of mankind.As if the metaphysics were actually true. The sinister part of this story was not that a man had to be tortured and killed to forgive the entirety of humanity, it was that God refused remove the threat of punishment and hell. He could have just said "You know what, I changed my mind, there's no good reason for me to hold the wrongdoings of Adam and Eve over everyone's heads like I've been doing for the past few thousand years, I'm just going to get rid of hell and stop torturing humanity." But oh no, this God isn't ready to stop torturing people, so instead of reforming his own standards, he still insists on holding everyone accountable for these nonsensical "sins" , and sends himself (or his son) to be executed as a gesture of "love" to save mankind from his own vindictiveness and wrath. It is an insanely stupid and immoral story. Jesus' self-sacrifice and love is not real self-sacrifice and love because it comes with the catch that you must venerate him or else you are excluded from it, and subsequently punished for it. Religion is poison, and it always has been. The world will be better off when it purges dogmatic, superstitious thinking from its mind for good. Whatever replaces it will almost certainly be superior because it will likely just be some form of humanistic values that we already generally harbor. It will also be derived from a much broader understanding of the world than the narrow, tribalistic, barbarism of the ancient middle east. Edited November 26, 2016 by Tampitump
Prometheus Posted November 26, 2016 Posted November 26, 2016 (edited) The sinister part of this story was not that a man had to be tortured and killed to forgive the entirety of humanity, it was that God refused remove the threat of punishment and hell. He could have just said "You know what, I changed my mind, there's no good reason for me to hold the wrongdoings of Adam and Eve over everyone's heads like I've been doing for the past few thousand years, I'm just going to get rid of hell and stop torturing humanity." But oh no... Don't take it literally: by doing so you are making the same mistake as many a theist. And i know you don't believe these things actually happened but you are as emotionally invested in them as those who do, only from the other side of the fence. If you can't let it go, how can you expect people who actually believe it to let it go? And we all on this thread want them to let it go, right? Religion is poison, and it always has been. I thought we had on this thread at least come to an understanding that religion isn't some homogeneously evil entity; that is has done some good and provided some solace to individuals, even if only behind closed doors. No? The world will be better off when it purges dogmatic, superstitious thinking from its mind for good... A great purge perhaps? An unfortunate choice of words, maybe you didn't realise the connotations. But such language is exactly what polarises people, dividing communities and fanning the tribalism you profess to lament. Does everyone here really think the way to get religious people to let go of their cherished beliefs is by labelling their religion as stupid or evil? Would it not be more fruitful to seek common ground - to understand the stories in their canon and pick up the obviously frayed threads and help weave a new narrative. From Genesis through Paradise Lost to Frankenstein we see a demonstration of exactly this process. And maybe we ourselves will learn a thing or two in the process too. For sure there is a time barbs, and perhaps, with the heaviest of heart, violence. But there are many more low hanging fruits that can be picked with compassion, understanding and patience. If there are many other books that teach morals, then what's special about the teachings of the bible? Nothing. I preferred Babylon 5 and Star Trek (TNG). But to each her own. Edited November 26, 2016 by Prometheus
Tampitump Posted November 27, 2016 Posted November 27, 2016 Prometheus, fair enough. I'm just sharing what I actually think.
Memammal Posted November 27, 2016 Posted November 27, 2016 It would be if I had actually said that. No..? You wrote: I do however argue that currently secularism has yet to find a way; brexit and Trump wouldn't happen in a content fearless society. ^ Statement was made on the back of you arguing that secularism (and/or atheism) has not been able to bring (the same) content and fearlessness (than religion)..? The truth is that Brexit and Trump have both occurred in statistically-speaking pro-religious societies, driven by pro-religious conservatives. Anyway, let us leave it at that. But then this, How are the various bibles not real? Uhmm, is this a rhetorical question..? I mean there are many very significant differences between the Bible, Talmud/Tanakh & Quran. One prime example: just have a look at how each of these treat the Jesus narrative. So which is true, which is false? How do you interpret the teachings of Jesus considering the uncertainty that surrounds the character, or do you just ignore the authenticity and focus on the teachings (that were pretty much universal in any event) as one would with any other book...even though Jesus might never have uttered them? You do realise that these religions have waged wars over matters such as these. Even today's Christian vs Muslim conflicts still do not recognise the other's god, or kill and maim in the name of its own. Furthermore, the Bible (especially the OT) contains fictitious stories, stories, events & characters that are historically and scientifically questionable; to be honest, very few that could actually be verified. But more importantly it proves my point, in that you dismiss any potential wisdom out of hand and insist we throw the baby out with the bathwater. We already discussed the subject of ancient wisdom that originated from different parts of the old world and that are contained in various ancient scriptures. I previously admitted that the Bible could thus be regarded as having served the purpose of preserving a specific collection of said historical teachings. I have questioned the relevance thereof in today's age though. The most important ancient teachings of wisdom, those that could be labelled as timeless, were mostly universal and had their origins in pre-Biblical literature. They have been entrenched in our various cultures for millennia and admittedly religion played a role, but if you really want to you can just google them. My problem lies with the bathwater. If said teachings are conveyed to today's new generations, how are they being conveyed? Against the backdrop of supernatural beings like gods, angels and devils that could determine one's immortal fate, or as ancient human wisdom..?
Prometheus Posted November 27, 2016 Posted November 27, 2016 Prometheus, fair enough. I'm just sharing what I actually think. No one here can doubt you speak true to your thoughts: a most commendable trait, and one that i envy. For i too see the abhorrence in religion you speak of. Worse yet, i also see what Dimreepr sees... It is like listening to a piece of music that truly elevates your heart, makes you feel things you cannot begin to describe and didn't even think possible to feel until you lose yourself (i hope you have experienced such; whether in music, in dance or in love, the medium doesn't seem to matter). You play it to another person, but they are not moved as you were. That is a little sad, just because you know of this beautiful thing which they are unable to see; but they likely see beauty elsewhere so it's not so bad. But it is worse when there are people who listen to that same music often, call the names, beat the rhythm, congregate to listen to it but are are little moved by it, if at all. For them it is an anthem, a badge of membership and a fools ticket into that better placed which is always just a little farther. Maybe it is best to silence that music. Maybe such people will then wake from their slumber. But it is beautiful music and i would be sad to lose it. And i fear they would not wake anyway... 1
Tampitump Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) Do you want beautiful music or do want mankind to be on this planet for another long while? I'm not saying one or the other is the right or wrong answer, but destruction will surely overtake us if we cannot somehow convince the better part of humanity to drop dogma, forget about this bullshit emphasis they place on tradition, embrace the methods of science, and start caring about discovering truth by admitting when you have no evidence for something, and trying mightily to make your beliefs scale with the better evidence and the better arguments. Do all of this and we can still have love, friendship, community, hope, happiness, family, joy, bliss, dreams, passion, and yes, even spirituality. It doesn't have to come from some fucking moronic, antiquated fairy book. Edited November 28, 2016 by Tampitump
Tampitump Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) Here's what I'm talking about. Here's one of the memes currently posted by one my knuckle-dragging friends on facebook: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fchristianfunnypictures.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F10%2Fthings-that-wont-get-you-into-Heaven.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fchristianfunnypictures.com%2F2015%2F10%2Fthings-that-wont-get-you-into-heaven.html&docid=8Z_njbwPxOxv8M&tbnid=6BdNEAINX-H56M%3A&vet=1&w=445&h=445&client=safari&bih=331&biw=667&ved=0ahUKEwiVmYzn1crQAhUG7yYKHXAEDHwQMwgbKAAwAA&iact=mrc&uact=8 If this psychopathic and deranged view of morality can somehow be construed as morally-wise and beautiful, then I must be the psychotic one. Forget about whether or not this is what the Bible actually teaches. This is what people believe. The sickest and most deranged psychotic in the world could not dream up a less moral view of the world than Christianity. This is the poison that simply must be purged from the human species as soon as possible. There is no good in this vision of life at all. Edited November 28, 2016 by Tampitump 1
Memammal Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 ^ Gosh, that really is a false tune that needs to be silenced...
Itoero Posted November 28, 2016 Author Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) Theistic religions slow science evolution, it inhibits scientific curiosity and can prevent people from doing science. The story of Kurt Wise is a nice example. As child, he was very interested in science, especially Geology. Later, as a sophomore in high school, he took a newly purchased Bible and a pair of scissors and cut out every verse which could not be interpreted literally if scientific determinations on the age of the earth and evolution were true. He pursued this task with a flashlight under the covers of his bed for several months; at the end, he had removed so much material that "with the cover of the Bible taken off, I attempted to physically lift the Bible from the bed between two fingers. Yet, try as I might, and even with the benefit of intact margins throughout the pages of Scripture, I found it impossible to pick up the Bible without it being rent in two." Wise decided to reject evolution instead of Biblical literalism. Something he wrote: "Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate." Kurt Patrick Wise (born 1959) serves now as the Director of Creation Research Center at Truett McConnell University. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Wise#Views_and_criticism Edited November 28, 2016 by Itoero
Prometheus Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 Do you want beautiful music or do want mankind to be on this planet for another long while? Perhaps off-topic but the ideology most likely to end humanity is consumerism with its links to AGW. Are you then as emotionally invested in removing this ideology as religion? War is about 50th and violence about 25th in global causes of death. Even if we assume every single instance of those is attributable to religion, there are bigger threats to humanity. Here's what I'm talking about. Here's one of the memes currently posted by one my knuckle-dragging friends on facebook: If this psychopathic and deranged view of morality can somehow be construed as morally-wise and beautiful, then I must be the psychotic one. Forget about whether or not this is what the Bible actually teaches. This is what people believe. The sickest and most deranged psychotic in the world could not dream up a less moral view of the world than Christianity. This is the poison that simply must be purged from the human species as soon as possible. There is no good in this vision of life at all. I agree its unpleasant, but maybe a bit much to say it is deranged moronic psychopathy that must be purged - which means physically removed, by violence if they resist. Is your friend doing other things to warrant your vitriol? Forcing you or others to believe? Did you try calling your friend a moron, or psychotic, or deranged? Did you threaten to purge him from the Earth as soon as possible if he did not change his thoughts? Do you think it would work? Theistic religions slow science evolution, it inhibits scientific curiosity and can prevent people from doing science. You keep saying that but have yet to actually provide evidence. You know, decide on measures of religiosity and scientific output, determine what confounding variables might exist, decide how one might prove causation from any observed correlations. You know, this science you so laud but have yet to demonstrate. I imagine USA may score reasonably high on a religiosity score, but near the top, if not top, on the scientific output score, so I doubt the picture is as clear as you would like it to be. But that's just my opinion: i await your data. And if the anecdote i offered was rejected as being unrepresentative in this discussion, why do you feel your third-party anecdote has weight? Either anecdotes are acceptable in this discussion or they are not: or are they only acceptable if they conform to what you already believe?
Tampitump Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 ^ Gosh, that really is a false tune that needs to be silenced...These country bumpkins around where I live think this is good. They'll "amen" it all day long. I just want push them off a fucking cliff.
paragaster Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 The American Right claims to be Christian Conservatives. Is it a co-incidence that racist vote for the American Right. Is it White Supremacist in the garb of Christian Conservatives. What is the politically right word for racism?
dimreepr Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 These country bumpkins around where I live think this is good. They'll "amen" it all day long. I just want push them off a fucking cliff. You may think your better than them, but they just say amen whilst you just want them dead. Your hatred destroys you, not them. 1
Tampitump Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) You may think your better than them, but they just say amen whilst you just want them dead. Your hatred destroys you, not them. Dimreepr, answer me this question. Are you fucking shitting me right now? Are fucking serious with any of the bullshit you've said in this thread? How many unfounded, slippery-slope, assertions are you going pack into this thread? What gives you the indication that I want them dead? I'll have you know that I love all of my Christian friends and family. You should take that accusation back right now. I'm personally insulted by it. I demand an apology from you. I don't hate them anymore than I hate someone who has cancer. Its the patently absurd ideology they believe in that I hate. I want it out of their minds, and I want its poison to stop infecting them. The difference is that people who have cancer don't go around making up euphemisms for it and talking about how cancer is a good thing. I would mightily oppose this position as well, and call anyone who holds this position a knuckle-dragging idiot. You're damn right I despise this belief system. I'm an antitheist in this respect. Don't you ever forget it. Edited November 28, 2016 by Tampitump
dimreepr Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 What gives you an indication that I want them dead? "I just want push them off a fucking cliff."
Tampitump Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 "I just want push them off a fucking cliff." Have you ever heard of hyperbole?
dimreepr Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 I want its poison to stop infecting them. I want that too, but not just them.
Tampitump Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 Its a figure of speech meant to convey the intensity of my frustration with their hidebound and ignorant views.
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