Bacteria make food

[fredreload]

We all now bacteria can be used to make certain food product, but what if we use the bacteria to make food such as carbohydrate, fruit, and milk? I got the idea from how bacteria produce insulin and through my previous understanding of the plant's Kreb cycle. All you need is Rubisco enzyme, ATP, and carbon dioxide. You might even be able to create meat protein but I haven't don research on that one. In the end, I believe bacteria can be used to create food products, got any suggestions? Thanks

Edited November 13, 2016 by fredreload

[Sensei]

We all now bacteria can be used to make certain food product, but what if we use the bacteria to make food such as carbohydrate,

 

You don't need bacteria to make carbohydrate (sugar). It's natural job of plants, vegetables, fruits.

What is advantage of making bacteria producing sugar, instead of simply using existing plants, which already do it?

 

You don't get perfectly clean product from bacteria, nor from plants, nor from yeast. It must be processed to clean it up.

After fermentation, there are remains of yeast in solution, and there is need to use special compounds for clarification which will kill remaining yeast, and attach to their remains, and gather at the bottom of tank.

Then it's filtered and multistage distillation done to have pretty pure ethanol.

 

You might even be able to create meat protein but I haven't don research on that one. In the end, I believe bacteria can be used to create food products, got any suggestions?

 

This way no animal would have to be killed (or even live) for people pleasure..

Actually this is the only reasonable way of producing food in the future of human kind when simply there will be too many humans.

Microorganisms are more efficient in producing product needed by humans than the real living animals. Compare mass of eaten pasha to weight of pig or bullock.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Sensei

[fredreload]

 

 

You don't need bacteria to make carbohydrate (sugar). It's natural job of plants, vegetables, fruits.

What is advantage of making bacteria producing sugar, instead of simply using existing plants, which already do it?

 

You don't get perfectly clean product from bacteria, nor from plants, nor from yeast. It must be processed to clean it up.

After fermentation, there are remains of yeast in solution, and there is need to use special compounds for clarification which will kill remaining yeast, and attach to their remains, and gather at the bottom of tank.

Then it's filtered and multistage distillation done to have pretty pure ethanol.

 

 

This way no animal would have to be killed (or even live) for people pleasure..

Actually this is the only reasonable way of producing food in the future of human kind when simply there will be too many humans.

Microorganisms are more efficient in producing product needed by humans than the real living animals. Compare mass of eaten pasha to weight of pig or bullock.

 

Hmm, you produce carbohydrate with microorganism having the rubisco enzyme so that you can produce carbohydrate 24 hours a day as long as you got ATP. The only problem with the rubisco enzyme is that it has a slow reaction rate so people has been thinking about ways to enhance its speed genetically. But hey, 24 hours a day is 12 more hours than what the plants can produce.

Right the product is not clean, but from what insulin suggested, the unclean product protein will be cleaned and cut off to get the final product, we'll get food as clean as insulin is, that would be my guess.

The idea of producing unlimited food is that people around the world will no longer have to worry about food. And after a while you'll be able to cycle them from waste to produce ATP, and the primary source of that is phosphorous, which we have abundant in storage as fertilizers.

Right, having bacteria producing meat is cool, there is the stem cell hamburgers that has been around and with the idea of growing meat from meat cells but most of them lack the taste of the original meat. You can get stem cell burger for 12 dollars last time I've heard. Well the bacteria produce protein, and meat is protein. It will probably be some kind of meat loaf, I think, but if you have a better idea as to what the complete product of meat would look like that could be produced by bacteria, let me know about it.

The idea about plants producing fruit is still a mystery. But again I believe they are all enzyme based. You would be able to make fruit juice from bacteria.

Economic wise the price of the food should lower, but this is only if the whole mechanism is placed in production. I don't know what Novozyme is doing but if they really do try they can get the carbohydrate production to work. Others might be working on it in secret to boost the starch and sugar production. You think this idea will ever be placed in use? Let me know

[CharonY]

To use bacteria to get individual food components is incredibly inefficient. Think of glucose at a higher price than insulin. The whole proposition only makes sense if we a) can utilize the whole or at least most of the biomass as food and b) there is an efficient way to provide the organism with energy to fix carbon.

 

The rest of the reasoning does not make a lot of sense, either. The Calvin cycle does not only happen 12h a day (why would it?), it is also a multiple step process (if you want glucose to be formed), also compound purification does not work the way you describe it. The rest does not even loosely connect to that.

[John Cuthber]

If you want to grow something small (unicellular) to make food, algae are much better bet.

[CharonY]

Indeed. Just avoid those produce neurotoxins, unless you want that special tingle. In that regard specifically those that thrive in salt water are probably the most ecologically viable.

[fredreload]

To use bacteria to get individual food components is incredibly inefficient. Think of glucose at a higher price than insulin. The whole proposition only makes sense if we a) can utilize the whole or at least most of the biomass as food and b) there is an efficient way to provide the organism with energy to fix carbon.

 

The rest of the reasoning does not make a lot of sense, either. The Calvin cycle does not only happen 12h a day (why would it?), it is also a multiple step process (if you want glucose to be formed), also compound purification does not work the way you describe it. The rest does not even loosely connect to that.

I am not sure about its efficiency, but it's the same Rubisco Enzyme that plant uses. It only works 12 hours a day for plants is because plants need sunlight to get ATP, if you can get ATP for Rubisco enzyme, which I believe you can generate chemically, you don't need sunlight. I assume sunlight goes on for 12 hours a day, but if you just extract the Rubisco enzyme you can have the reaction for 24 hours a day providing ATP and carbon dioxide for reaction until Rubisco enzyme breaks down.

And that's without having the microorganisms involved, but you somehow insert Rubisco Enzyme gene into the bacteria it is a different story.

[John Cuthber]

I am not sure about its efficiency, but it's the same Rubisco Enzyme that plant uses. It only works 12 hours a day for plants is because plants need sunlight to get ATP, if you can get ATP for Rubisco enzyme, which I believe you can generate chemically, you don't need sunlight. I assume sunlight goes on for 12 hours a day, but if you just extract the Rubisco enzyme you can have the reaction for 24 hours a day providing ATP and carbon dioxide for reaction until Rubisco enzyme breaks down.

And that's without having the microorganisms involved, but you somehow insert Rubisco Enzyme gene into the bacteria it is a different story.

It's not just the enzyme you need to make ATP; where do you plan to get the energy from?

[fredreload]

It's not just the enzyme you need to make ATP; where do you plan to get the energy from?

ATP is essentially ADP+phosphate, well, as I've posted this before in Physics Forum, and got banned , not because of this post. The idea is biological and chemical company is capable of cycling and creating ATP synthetically as someone mentioned. The only thing that is in my mind right now is electrolysis lol, but well, clearly this is one of the information that I am missing. To me creating chemical energy ATP and extracting Rubisco enzyme from plant does not seem like that hard of a work, but if it happens to be, you are free to point it out. The rest is just an alcohol making process. Sugar can become start through an enzyme. But again carbohydrate is not protein, so that would be another essential element if you want to keep the body moving

[CharonY]

Oh dear, synthesizing ATP costs energy and in vitro synthesis is rather expensive. Doing the whole thing that plants and bacteria do in vivo (and again, RuBisCO is not the only enzyme required) is ineffective and costly. And the issue is not only the extraction of all the required proteins but after that they rapidly lose activity. To put it simple, it does not make any sense. At. All.

Biochemistry does not work like LEGO. And on this board we obey the laws of thermodynamics.

[John Cuthber]

ATP is essentially ADP+phosphate, well, as I've posted this before in Physics Forum, and got banned , not because of this post. The idea is biological and chemical company is capable of cycling and creating ATP synthetically as someone mentioned. The only thing that is in my mind right now is electrolysis lol, but well, clearly this is one of the information that I am missing. To me creating chemical energy ATP and extracting Rubisco enzyme from plant does not seem like that hard of a work, but if it happens to be, you are free to point it out. The rest is just an alcohol making process. Sugar can become start through an enzyme. But again carbohydrate is not protein, so that would be another essential element if you want to keep the body moving

" To me creating chemical energy ATP and extracting Rubisco enzyme from plant does not seem like that hard of a work, but if it happens to be, you are free to point it out. "

Consider it to be pointed out.

This "ATP is essentially ADP+phosphate, " is like saying "timber is essentially ash + smoke ".

To a degree, it's true (the atoms are the same) , but you can't make timber that way

[fredreload]

" To me creating chemical energy ATP and extracting Rubisco enzyme from plant does not seem like that hard of a work, but if it happens to be, you are free to point it out. "

Consider it to be pointed out.

This "ATP is essentially ADP+phosphate, " is like saying "timber is essentially ash + smoke ".

To a degree, it's true (the atoms are the same) , but you can't make timber that way

You can make ATP from sunlight, to me it seems like a solar cell battery lol

[John Cuthber]

You can make ATP from sunlight, to me it seems like a solar cell battery lol

To me it seems like a plant. They are quite good at it.

[imatfaal]

 

sorry - Could not resist. John's and Charon's comment pretty much encapsulate the problems with the OP's approach - so I thought I would post one of my fave scientific sillinesses

[swansont]

We all now bacteria can be used to make certain food product, but what if we use the bacteria to make food such as carbohydrate, fruit, and milk? I got the idea from how bacteria produce insulin and through my previous understanding of the plant's Kreb cycle. All you need is Rubisco enzyme, ATP, and carbon dioxide. You might even be able to create meat protein but I haven't don research on that one. In the end, I believe bacteria can be used to create food products, got any suggestions? Thanks

 

 

!

Moderator Note

 

If you are going to ask questions, please do so in the appropriate section of the forum rather than posting it in speculations. If you have a speculation, it needs to be sufficiently developed such that you can defend it.

 

What you can't do is assert something while having to ask questions about the underlying science. You can't just throw out a claim that you think bacteria can be used to create food products. You have to support that idea. What you can do instead is ask why people aren't already doing this, and that will still generate the same kind of excellent responses you've gotten here, without abusing the infrastructure of the forum.

 

Moving this to biology

 

[fredreload]

So again you need sunlight to make ATP, we might need a bucket and bring it next to the sun

[John Cuthber]

Bacteria are used to produce insulin. The cost of insulin in India- where it's pretty cheap and there's no monopoly supplier is about £0.12 per day according to this

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-insulin-cost-per-day-for-a-Type-1-diabetic-in-India-on-average

That's something like 50 units of insulin and so we are talking about 1/4 pence per unit.

And a unit of insulin is about 35 micrograms.

So a microgram costs 0.007pence or so.

and a gram costs about £70.

Making food that costs £2000 per ounce is- shall we say- interesting.

 

 

Why did you think it was a good idea?

[fredreload]

Bacteria are used to produce insulin. The cost of insulin in India- where it's pretty cheap and there's no monopoly supplier is about £0.12 per day according to this

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-insulin-cost-per-day-for-a-Type-1-diabetic-in-India-on-average

That's something like 50 units of insulin and so we are talking about 1/4 pence per unit.

And a unit of insulin is about 35 micrograms.

So a microgram costs 0.007pence or so.

and a gram costs about £70.

Making food that costs £2000 per ounce is- shall we say- interesting.

 

 

Why did you think it was a good idea?

Because carbohydrate is not insulin. And you know, I'd also like to know what makes the insulin production process so expensive. The first stem cell burger was sold for 1 million I think, but now it costs only 12 dollars, think of the progress we can make

Edited November 20, 2016 by fredreload

[John Cuthber]

"Because carbohydrate is not insulin. "

No, and nobody said it was, but it's a thing made by bacteria so it's reasonable starting point. Most of the things we consider as food are more complex than insulin.

"And you know, I'd also like to know what makes the insulin production process so expensive. "

Well, part of the cost is that we have to feed the bacteria that make it- generally with stuff that would count as food for animals- even for people at a pinch.

"he first stem cell burger was sold for 1 million I think, but now it costs only 12 dollars"

Where can I buy one?

"think of the progress we can make"

We can make a lot more progress if we don't waste effort on ideas put forward by those who don't understand what they are on about.

[fredreload]

People are too afraid of the idea of bacteria, I'd imagine it to be as common as yeast over time.

My mistake, the microorganisms are used to produce the enzyme needed to make carbohydrates, and that would be something that makes sense to mass produce. Although my understanding of it is as much as Novozyme posted.

Stem cell burger would be out in the menu by year 2020.

Well, my ideas need to be refined, I believe some of my ideas are great, but I myself do lack the motivation to run it. I can get some idea pretty close to where it needs to be, but getting it to work is another problem. So I suggest simulate the whole process before following my ideas through. Personally I think carbohydrate could be mass produced. We'll need to get the ATP source and Rubisco enzyme though

[CharonY]

It is not about fear, bacteria are routinely used in food production. It is just that your specific idea is impractical and has zero benefits over traditional approaches, such as using plant material for bulk sugar production. Sorry to say, but your idea is not great as it is based on very limited understanding of the underlying biochemistry. Enthusiasm is one thing, but it needs to be equipped with a bit of knowledge to be useful at all.

Otherwise, you are just indulging in fantasy and not in science.

[John Cuthber]

People are too afraid of the idea of bacteria,

, I believe some of my ideas are great,

I can get some idea pretty close to where it needs to be, but getting it to work is another problem.

 

Plenty of things are made by bacteria most dairy products, kimchi soy sauce etc.

People swallow bacteria as "probiotics".

People are scared of some bacteria- but that's not unreasonable.

 

Your ideas are not great because they are unworkable.

 

"I can get some idea pretty close to where it needs to be, but getting it to work is another problem."

No, getting it to work is impossible, because it's a breach of the laws of physics..