8 glass of water per day???

[Zolar V]

i don't suppose this argument stems from a plausible misunderstanding over the nutrient post which started this.

i was assuming that the "nutrient" was referring to individual food items unaltered in anyway. example, a cricket eaten while living, unaltered.

a cricket eaten after being cooked, altered

a cricket after being added to something, altered

 

the whole bet as stated before is based on the human body not able to get enough moisture from just food. so in order to measure the moisture content of food you cannot have it changed from its original state. and thus my bet stands, and i can firmly say i would win as well. and i under that pretense can conclude that the human body cannot receive enough moisture from unaltered foods, aside from insects, that it will dehydrate.

[Sisyphus]

So now it's only food if it's unaltered from something you can find in nature? Well:

1) That isn't anyone else's definition of food.

2) You're changing your terms every post.

3) You're still wrong! Watery fruits and milk ftw.

[Zolar V]

3.) i dont consider milk a food, its a drink, and its original form would be grass anyways.

watery fruits are food, coconut milk is not, its other stuff is

 

obviously i am not able to properly address this issue in the way i wanted to, so i will now remove myself from this thread and just watch.

[Sisyphus]

But surely the grass' original form is dirt? But... the dirt's original form is dead plant matter, minerals, feces, etc. But then, their original forms are living things also. But <i>their</i> original forms are whatever their diets and nutrient sources were, but, but, but....

 

<i>IT'S THE CIIIIIIRCLE, THE CIIIIRCLE OF LIIIIIIIIFE</i>

 

For what it's worth, I agree with you that you can't survive only on the matter that existed immediately after the Big Bang. You'd be vaporized!

[Mokele]

Ok, this is just getting assinine.

 

Zolar V, you have been *proven* wrong on this. Go back and read my prior posts, particularly about metabolic water.

 

You GAIN water from digesting food. Quite a bit, too.

 

The only reason humans can't sustain themselves on food alone is that we lose too much water from sweat and respiration - other animals, particularly desert species, are more than capable of life without any water beyond what's in their food.

[npts2020]

Besides, when I did the juice fast, the juice was fresh from a juicer.

[Zolar V]

Ok, this is just getting assinine.

 

Zolar V, you have been *proven* wrong on this. Go back and read my prior posts, particularly about metabolic water.

 

You GAIN water from digesting food. Quite a bit, too.

 

The only reason humans can't sustain themselves on food alone is that we lose too much water from sweat and respiration - other animals, particularly desert species, are more than capable of life without any water beyond what's in their food.

 

and im not disagreeing with you, rather you just proved my point.

i did not say anything about removing the sweat factor or respiration when saying you do not get enough moisture from food alone. quite the contrary i do believe. of course i never said anything regarding the normal daily activities, but rather that should have been assumed.

if anyone is currently being assinine it would be you sir, for taking the material out of context.

[Leader Bee]

I didn't read every single post but i'd like to point out it is possible to drink too much water.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

[Zolar V]

i really dont think i should be saying this, but just to prove my point, during survival school we were specifically told that you cannot live on food alone, and insects are the only food item that has enough moisture in iteslf to digest without deyhydrating the person.

if you really think they are wrong.. then.... you can change the 60 years of their proven survival techniques.

[Sisyphus]

Or maybe, just maybe, they're telling you what you need to know, rather than 100% medically accurate information. Especially inasmuch as there apparently isn't even a technical definition of "food" vs. "drink." You should remember to drink water in a survival situation, because it's easy to get dehydrated before you realize it. But "you can't survive on just food" is not just inaccurate, it's technically meaningless.

[Syntho-sis]

Or maybe, just maybe, they're telling you what you need to know, rather than 100% medically accurate information. Especially inasmuch as there apparently isn't even a technical definition of "food" vs. "drink." You should remember to drink water in a survival situation, because it's easy to get dehydrated before you realize it. But "you can't survive on just food" is not just inaccurate, it's technically meaningless.

 

I've studied alot into wilderness survival techniques. I even helped teach a class on this very subject. Most of the experts agree that unless you have an adequate supply of FRESH, CLEAN water then you should not ingest anything type of food whatsoever. When I say food, I'm talking about anything that requires you to put it in your mouth and chew. Essentially anything in solid form that would require you to have water to break it down. Such as muscle and fat tissue.

 

Not only that, but generally in the wilderness you are much more physically active than you would be otherwise. Expending a huge amount of calories and drinking upwards of maybe 2 gallons of waters a day. You lose alot of water thru sweat and respiration.

 

Under these conditions, no matter what type of food you were eating (coconuts, berries, oranges) you would still need a regular supply of water to stay properly hydrated.

 

Whether or not you can survive indefinitely without water, I have no idea. But the consensus amongst most wilderness survivalists is that water should ALWAYS be you primary concern. Right after surviving of course

 

I'm sure someone has written in a journal on this very subject.

[Sisyphus]

I don't disagree that that's good advice. But the act of chewing does not magically make water turn into something else. So if "food" is a "anything that involves chewing," then the statement is not - cannot be - technically accurate.

[insane_alien]

when fat tissue is digested by the body it PRODUCES water. it doesn't give a net deficit.

 

this is because the oxygen you breath in reacts with the molecules and specifically the hydrogens to form water.

 

to say that it requires water is just wrong.

[Syntho-sis]

I don't disagree that that's good advice. But the act of chewing does not magically make water turn into something else. So if "food" is a "anything that involves chewing," then the statement is not - cannot be - technically accurate.

 

I pulled that definition out of the air.. Here's a more coherent one:

 

Food: Any substance eaten to provide nutritional support for the body.

 

Back on the wilderness survival note: I would like to mention that there have been reported instances of desert nomads surviving for periods without drinking water by ingesting camel's blood. I don't have any records to provide on that but it does make since imo. A camel's blood cell is oval shaped which helps it retain water and flow a lot easier.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel

 

I thought that was interesting.

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

when fat tissue is digested by the body it PRODUCES water. it doesn't give a net deficit.

 

this is because the oxygen you breath in reacts with the molecules and specifically the hydrogens to form water.

 

to say that it requires water is just wrong.

 

So if my diet primarily consisted of fat then I wouldn't need any water to compensate my nutritional needs (Digestion)?

 

What you're saying doesn't really make sense from a practical standpoint.

[Sisyphus]

"Anything that provides nutritional support?" OK: Water that is in something that provides nutritional support is not magically not water. Corrollary: 100% pure water is not the only water that "counts."

[insane_alien]

So if my diet primarily consisted of fat then I wouldn't need any water to compensate my nutritional needs (Digestion)?

 

What you're saying doesn't really make sense from a practical standpoint.

 

You would still need supplementary water but it is not for digestive purposes.

 

your body needs water for other processes(but not much, it could easily be supplied by the digestion of fats and carbohydrates) and the body is leaky. we sweat a LOT. this is why we need to drink so much water. it simply just gets expelled again either for cooling or waste disposal.

 

if you are in conditions where sweating is kept to a bare minimum then your supplementary water requirements will reduce dramatically. as it stands we lose a good litre a day in a cool climate, this needs to be replaced.

[Mokele]

Look, it's perfectly simple:

 

 

You, as a human, have to do various things like breathe and piss (and, when hot, sweat). These result in your body losing water.

 

ALL food, when digested, PRODUCES water, even if totally dry. A dry sugar cube gives your body water, and the amount is fixed, a product of chemistry.

 

 

Total body water = water drunk + actual moisture in food + water gained from digesting food - water lost to essential processes.

 

 

Now, your body *will* have to use some water to digest food (and a bit more to excrete protein by-products as urine), but the transaction will be a net positive.

 

The actual key to surviving is to reduce water loss, either at the individual or evolutionary level. As an individual, you aren't going to be able to suddenly evolve the ability to excrete uric acid rather than urine, so you need other ways.

 

As a human, your biggest losses of water are breathing and pissing. These are basic functions to meet metabolic demands. If you don't eat, your metabolism will automatically slow down, resulting is less breathing and less pissing, thereby reducing water loss.

 

 

Now, the whole insect thing is bullshit. Fruit contains tremendous amounts of liquid, without the high protein levels of insects (which will cause more pissing). Hell, if you can kill an animal, eat its liver ASAP, raw - it's full of glycogen, a polymerized sugar which is very high in both calories and metabolic water.

 

 

 

Summary:

 

ALL food produces metabolic water.

 

Humans, however, constantly leak out water, and the best way to conserve it is to reduce your metabolic rate via voluntary starvation.

 

The survivalists were over-simplifying, either to convey the information simply or because they simply didn't understand the underlying physiology.

[Syntho-sis]

Summary:

 

ALL food produces metabolic water.

 

Humans, however, constantly leak out water, and the best way to conserve it is to reduce your metabolic rate via voluntary starvation.

 

The survivalists were over-simplifying, either to convey the information simply or because they simply didn't understand the underlying physiology.

 

Well that makes sense. My only question is, does the water that is produced from metabolizing the food products excreted or is it reused by the body?

[insane_alien]

both. it just gets added to the general pool(figurative) of water in the body.

[iNow]

The water in the body is fungible.

[npts2020]

i really dont think i should be saying this, but just to prove my point, during survival school we were specifically told that you cannot live on food alone, and insects are the only food item that has enough moisture in iteslf to digest without deyhydrating the person.

if you really think they are wrong.. then.... you can change the 60 years of their proven survival techniques.

 

They probably only told you that to get you to eat the bugs. Truthfully though, even the military is prone to misinformation from time to time.

[Psycho]

Water melon, anyone want to claim that isn't a food and you couldn't live off it without drinking water, because then your just going to look like a fool.

 

Yes if you are stuck in a forest somewhere you need to drink water, but if I am sitting in front of the TV munching 3 water melons a day I really don't.

 

People who run survival course are not scientists or doctors, they just have experience in what they do, not metabolism or molecular understanding of food structures and breakdown.

 

They aren't expecting you to have a water melon or tons of fruit with you, you are going to have high carbohydrate foods, with fairly high salt and protein content as that is what you need and water does need to be consumed in large amounts as not to get dehydrated through the physical exertion due to the activities you are doing.