Refugees in Germany

[CharonY]

As you may have heard, Germany had a strong influx of asylum seekers in the last years, with many being Syrian refugees, but also from Afghanistan, Iraq and, weirdly, Serbia.

That has led to an increased anti-refugee as well as anti-immigrant (though Germany never really accepted non-Eu immigrants easily) stance under the overall that there will be no successful integration because, among other things, the cultures are too different. Integration into Germany has many challenges, especially for visible minorities, but what I want to discuss in this thread is the issue of refugee attitiudes. So far is that data was lacking, but just now the government has published the result of interviews of about 2300 refugees. In a second round the number is going to be doubled, but that is still ongoing. The interviews were conducted by KANTAR public and was conducted mostly in the respective native languages and was available to be done oral and/or written.

 

Since the report is in German I would like to highlight some statistics. The majority of the interviews were held with Syrians (1168), with Afghans (263) and Iraqis (248) and Eritreans/Somalians (211) being the next largest groups.

I will post the topic and add the % of refugee answers R and German average G as comparison:

 

Democracy:

Democracy is the best form of government (R:96 G:95)

Free elections (R: 96, G:91) and protection of civil rights (R:93 G:83) are essential for democracies

One needs a strong leader to counter parliament (R: 21 G:22)

Experts, not politicians should decide what is best for the country (R:55 G:59)

Religious leaders determine the interpretation of law (R: 13 G:8)

 

Women's rights

Women should have the same rights as men (R:92 G:92)

For the next part I would like to split between men (M) and women (W) in their answers:

A job is the best way for independence for women: RW: 88 GW:81 RM:85 GM:62

If a woman makes more money it will lead to problems: RW:30 GW:20 RM: 28 GM:16

For parents the education and job training should be more important for their sons than for their daughters:

RW:14 GW:11 RM: 19 GM:18

 

Based on that my question is: do these findings surprise you, or are they expected. Does it change or confirm your views on refugees and/or Germans?

 

Edit: dropped a zero

Edited November 15, 2016 by CharonY

[Delta1212]

Do you have a link to the original report?

[CharonY]

Sure, here is the short report and here the long form . It also discusses other aspects such as skill and education levels, which I would like to keep separate for now.

Edited November 15, 2016 by CharonY

[Prometheus]

Surveys/questionnaire's often suffer from selection bias. Do we know anything about how prevalent it may be in this survey?

[Delta1212]

Sure, here is the short report and here the long form . It also discusses other aspects such as skill and education levels, which I would like to keep separate for now.

Thanks. I'll save that to look through this afternoon.

[CharonY]

Surveys/questionnaire's often suffer from selection bias. Do we know anything about how prevalent it may be in this survey?

 

Well, the methodology is described. The selection is randomized but has a slight disproportionate amount of women (relative to the actual distribution) and people over 30, mostly to create sufficiently large bins for questioning. However, they applied statistical weighing to address that in the summary statistic. Other than that, could you specify what sources you think there may be and I could look into it. Less than 2% of those asked did only give partial or no statements (though I would need to dig again to be sure, but almost all responded)

Edited November 15, 2016 by CharonY

[iNow]

Based on that my question is: do these findings surprise you, or are they expected. Does it change or confirm your views on refugees and/or Germans?

Seems that pretty much everyone is the same, thinking and feeling similarly about important topics whether a refugee or a German, but that German men can be arseholes... erm... I mean, outliers.

[MigL]

My opinion, for what its worth...

These refugees are trying to escape oppressive governments and situations.

They see Western nations as safe havens because of the attitudes and culture that have formed our societies.

Is it any wonder the majority of them think like we tend to ?

If they didn't they wouldn't be coming here ( or to Germany )

 

Unfortunately it only takes one nutbar in their midst, for us to paint all refugees with the same brush !

[imatfaal]

My opinion, for what its worth...

These refugees are trying to escape oppressive governments and situations.

They see Western nations as safe havens because of the attitudes and culture that have formed our societies.

Is it any wonder the majority of them think like we tend to ?

If they didn't they wouldn't be coming here ( or to Germany )

 

Unfortunately it only takes one nutbar in their midst, for us to paint all refugees with the same brush !

 

Or even no nutbars - just the fear of one and misconception.

 

I have finally made it into a minority - albeit not a particularly oppressed one - got told that as a london cyclist I regularly run red lights, use pavements/sidewalks and hit pedestrians, and scrape cars; and deserve (yes deserve) to end up under a bus. The injustice of it (I am stupidly law-abiding nowadays) made me seethe - and although the stereotyping was of a very minor law-breaker; it made me travel some of the way to understanding the huge burden of unfair judgement we put on people (any group) when we judge all of them as guilty of the worst of the sins of the worst of the group we have (perhaps wrongly and arbitrarily) assigned them to.

[Phi for All]

I have finally made it into a minority - albeit not a particularly oppressed one - got told that as a london cyclist I regularly run red lights, use pavements/sidewalks and hit pedestrians, and scrape cars; and deserve (yes deserve) to end up under a bus. The injustice of it (I am stupidly law-abiding nowadays) made me seethe - and although the stereotyping was of a very minor law-breaker; it made me travel some of the way to understanding the huge burden of unfair judgement we put on people (any group) when we judge all of them as guilty of the worst of the sins of the worst of the group we have (perhaps wrongly and arbitrarily) assigned them to.

 

You bicyclists and your insistence on privilege! You don't have to follow the lanes, you can go where cars can't, you don't even have an engine yet we're forced to share the roads with you! You ignore the traffic I'm forced to sit in, and I can tell, as you peddle away into the sunset, you're probably sticking out your tongue in that bicycley way your kind has! You think you're so fit with your normal weight and all! We allowed you to use our roads and now you're like vermin, scurrying everywhere with your bells and your Lance pants and your fitness, taking road space away from cars! You stay in your little lane, two-wheels, because my envy can be lethal!

[StringJunky]

My opinion, for what its worth...

These refugees are trying to escape oppressive governments and situations.

They see Western nations as safe havens because of the attitudes and culture that have formed our societies.

Is it any wonder the majority of them think like we tend to ?

If they didn't they wouldn't be coming here ( or to Germany )

 

Unfortunately it only takes one nutbar in their midst, for us to paint all refugees with the same brush !

I agree, It's pretty much as I would expect.

[MigL]

Only have one issue with bike riders Imatfaal, and its probably misdirected as it should be towards city planners or law enforcement.

 

If I'm travelling down a busy street, with a lot of streetlights, I have to be very careful when overtaking a bike rider as it involves moving into the next-over, busy lane, in the absence of bike lanes.

When I come to a light and stop, that bike rider will not stop behind the vehicle ahead of him, but proceed to pass on the right hand side, and go to the front of the line,. This necessitates the dangerous passing maneuver, over and over again after every stop-light.

 

All vehicles, car or bike, on the road need to follow the same rules. No passing on the right hand side, and no travelling down the wrong side of the road ( like you Brits, or are we on the wrong side )

 

Sorry for the off topic jaunt, but you opened the door...

[StringJunky]

Only have one issue with bike riders Imatfaal, and its probably misdirected as it should be towards city planners or law enforcement.

 

If I'm travelling down a busy street, with a lot of streetlights, I have to be very careful when overtaking a bike rider as it involves moving into the next-over, busy lane, in the absence of bike lanes.

When I come to a light and stop, that bike rider will not stop behind the vehicle ahead of him, but proceed to pass on the right hand side, and go to the front of the line,. This necessitates the dangerous passing maneuver, over and over again after every stop-light.

 

All vehicles, car or bike, on the road need to follow the same rules. No passing on the right hand side, and no travelling down the wrong side of the road ( like you Brits, or are we on the wrong side )

 

Sorry for the off topic jaunt, but you opened the door...

In civilised countries it's on the left side. What you are describing is undertaking as opposed to overtaking.

Edited November 16, 2016 by StringJunky

[koti]

 

You bicyclists and your insistence on privilege! You don't have to follow the lanes, you can go where cars can't, you don't even have an engine yet we're forced to share the roads with you! You ignore the traffic I'm forced to sit in, and I can tell, as you peddle away into the sunset, you're probably sticking out your tongue in that bicycley way your kind has! You think you're so fit with your normal weight and all! We allowed you to use our roads and now you're like vermin, scurrying everywhere with your bells and your Lance pants and your fitness, taking road space away from cars! You stay in your little lane, two-wheels, because my envy can be lethal!

Your comment almost brought tears to my eyes. Gosh I miss Jeremy Clarkson.

[imatfaal]

Only have one issue with bike riders Imatfaal, and its probably misdirected as it should be towards city planners or law enforcement.

 

If I'm travelling down a busy street, with a lot of streetlights, I have to be very careful when overtaking a bike rider as it involves moving into the next-over, busy lane, in the absence of bike lanes.

When I come to a light and stop, that bike rider will not stop behind the vehicle ahead of him, but proceed to pass on the right hand side, and go to the front of the line,. This necessitates the dangerous passing maneuver, over and over again after every stop-light.

 

All vehicles, car or bike, on the road need to follow the same rules. No passing on the right hand side, and no travelling down the wrong side of the road ( like you Brits, or are we on the wrong side )

 

Sorry for the off topic jaunt, but you opened the door...

To an extent I agree - doesn't really apply to me as I ride basically across London twice every day; car do not overtake me! Joking aside very few parts of my journey is my average speed not well in excess of the cars' - those parts in which cars are faster I never see the same car twice as they are doing 50mph. I have raced a black cab whose driver I know from Westminster to Epping and he only caught me up when we got to the country roads well outside London.

 

I understand your point completely though because of those damn slow cyclists on Boris Bikes - every traffic light they either jump the red light or push to the front; meaning every time I have to repass them and stop myself from pushing them off as I overtake

 

You bicyclists and your insistence on privilege! You don't have to follow the lanes, you can go where cars can't, you don't even have an engine yet we're forced to share the roads with you! You ignore the traffic I'm forced to sit in, and I can tell, as you peddle away into the sunset, you're probably sticking out your tongue in that bicycley way your kind has! You think you're so fit with your normal weight and all! We allowed you to use our roads and now you're like vermin, scurrying everywhere with your bells and your Lance pants and your fitness, taking road space away from cars! You stay in your little lane, two-wheels, because my envy can be lethal!

 

I got called "a lanky streak of p!ss" last night - made my day! For someone who at one point couldn't see his shoes cos his belly was in the way this was a fine compliment. My favourite comment at present is "you really need to work on those anger management skills - that level of stress and you clearly don't get any exercise..." I try to stay away from real insults and bad language as I must avoid exacerbating already dangerous situations

[koti]

Dang imatfaal...I haven't realised there is a breed of cyclists who push other cyclists off the road
I see these "fixie" nutcases springing through traffic but you seem to be even something else. Looks like Hells Angels got nothing on you

[CharonY]

To cycle back to OP, I found the difference between self-perception and perception of others quite interesting. Especially as Germany as other Western countries champion equality, it appears that while it has made its way into laws, it is not quite in people's minds. In addition, it seems that, unsurprisingly, people have a better view on their own attitudes. This is a bit worrying as these surveys indicate that due to self-selection there is a good basis to improve relationships and integration. Yet in political discussions these points are frequently ignored.

[StringJunky]

Especially as Germany as other Western countries champion equality, it appears that while it has made its way into laws, it is not quite in people's minds.

Isn't nearly always the case that it can often take decades for a law to be embraced within the collective psych of the population; enacting a law is just the beginning of a long process of acceptance. In fact, I don't think it is necessarily accepted by the prevailing population when the law is enacted but their offspring conform to it later and accept it because they don't know anything else. For some laws to be accepted you have to wait for the younger generation to become the influential generation and the older rebel generation are putting their teeth in a glass at night.

Edited November 18, 2016 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

The problem with this is the assumption that the newer generation is actually going to embrace the changes. However, recent trends in Germany indicate that the youth, especially males are getting more conservative and also represent the pool of the most likely right-wing populist parties. For example the AFD (one of the right populists) has gained a lot of male voters below 36 from established parties while running on a platform to a return of traditional family values (while ironically being led by a woman).

So overall I am not necessarily certain that a generational change will be sufficient.

[iNow]

Time will tell.

 

In a few recent examples, demographic trends clearly showed youth favoring a more secular, liberal, even enlightened or renaissancian approach. We saw this soecificalky in the recent US election and the Brexit vote in UK prior to that. It was the elderly in those events who were central in and ultimately responsible for both outcomes being realized.

 

You are, however, most assuredly correct that pockets of nationalism, racism, and xenophobia have been trending noticeably upward. No quibbles there.

[Delta1212]

I would not be too quick to assume that generational and demographic trends hold across all countries.

[iNow]

Indeed, and I agree. Hadn't intended to imply otherwise.

[CharonY]

Indeed, and I agree. Hadn't intended to imply otherwise.

 

There is also a difference in motivation. In Brexit especially highly educated people saw that it went against their interests as it potentially closes opportunities especially for students. However, voting against minorities and now especially refugees is more of a protective action in the mind of many.