Scotty99 Posted November 24, 2016 Posted November 24, 2016 (This is going to be rambly, i have always had a hard time putting my thoughts down in a concise manner and i apologize in advance) For the longest time all ive cared about is the truth, and no matter what i cannot lie to myself as it is impossible for me to do so. I am not sure if this is a flaw or an attribute, but it has shaped the way i am today for better or worse. Everything i do focuses on truth, i get super upset with people when they get even the smallest things wrong, but here i would like to focus on the truth of our universe and how it (and we) came to be. Like many i have always had the big questions like why are we here, how did the universe come to be, is god real? Etc etc etc. I have always tried to keep up with sciences leading theories as well as the biggest problems facing them, and today i would like to talk about what i think is our truth currently when you take all things into consideration. First off id like to start with god/creator. Like many i used to think (it seemed obvious at first) that there is no way other life forms dont exist somewhere else in the universe, its so massive that somewhere out there life exists....right? Common sense would denote such things and its easy to have this kind of view with how our brains are wired, now i am not entirely sure of this. Some of you may recognize me from a different thread on geocentrism, i still feel that there are some great points about the earth being in the center of the universe but i have problems with it that this thread is mainly about. Many people somewhere along the lines have given up on god, the reasons for this could vary greatly from them not having their prayers answered, to stories from the bible that they cannot by any shape or form believe in any rational way, or any other reason you could imagine along these lines. It's very easy to give up on god when we have the wrong information, more on that later. When i say god i dont mean god from the bible per say, but a creator in the general sense. What this thread really boils down to is this, why cant the answer be in the middle? Why am i not allowed to believe in a creator and evolution at the same time for example? I can look around and see that ya, evolution is likely a thing that happened, but am i not allowed in the next sentence to say i believe we are the only living things in this universe? You see to me if you take all of the evidence and you put it all together in your head it points to us being created, but does that mean we also have to take everything in the bible at face value? How are we sure that some of the bible is correct and some of it isnt? For example i dont believe the earth was created in 7 days but i absolutely do believe the entire universe was created and it was created for US. I dont believe the earth is 6,000 years old but i do believe the earth sits in the exact geometric center of our universe. I could go on and on with examples like this, but i think you get the idea. Its not that i am questioning god (creator) here, i am simply questioning the literature we have at our disposal that has us so confused. Why are we convinced the answer is in science? If god did create this universe who do we think we are to try and figure this whole thing out, it is so far outside of our realm of understanding we cant even contemplate the idea of infinity. Science absolutely has it merits and great things have come from it but we need to know where to stop. A great example is drugs, antibiotics saved millions of lives but on the same token we need to know our limits and absolutely should not be fiddling with drugs that affect the mind, because we simply are no where near understanding how the brain actually functions, it is beyond our capacity. I truly believe we are getting to that point in our understanding of the universe currently, and as someone only after the truth i do not feel science is going to get us there alone. One thing i wont go into detail here but i believe plays some part is the fact we basically know nothing about even our fairly recent history. How are pyramids still standing today when they could have been built upwards of ~8k years ago, what exact processes were used in some of the mind blowing structures that are scattered around this planet that we really only have poor theories on how they were accomplished? Again this is only part of what i believe to be lost knowledge, i dont want to go more into detail about this because i dont know enough yet (and no,NOT aliens! I just believe we are missing a large part of our history to time) I understand many of you have minds that work purely on the grounds of the scientific method and nothing i am saying here right now will have any impact on you because its all hypothetical and it cant be tested and that is fine. I just wanted to put some thoughts down on paper and maybe get a discussion going that does not turn religion based because as you can see i came from no place resembling religion, these are just my thoughts on the truth of our current existence. I honestly have no bias one way or the other, i have a real feeling that we were created its just that the way people view a creator when you tie our current religious texts into it really muddies everything up. I think to get to the truth science is going to have to bring a creator into the picture, my wonder is if science and people who believe in our current religious texts can come to an understanding that they need to work together to figure this all out. I know people love to think of things in black and white that is why i titled the post as i did, i feel the answer is in the middle somewhere, just how long is it going to take to get there.
Ophiolite Posted November 25, 2016 Posted November 25, 2016 What this thread really boils down to is this, why cant the answer be in the middle? Why am i not allowed to believe in a creator and evolution at the same time for example? You are allowed to do so. No one i stopping you from doing this. Many millions of people and many branches of several faiths have no difficulty reconciling evolution and belief in God. So, if you are agonising over this you can stop right now. I can look around and see that ya, evolution is likely a thing that happened, but am i not allowed in the next sentence to say i believe we are the only living things in this universe? Of course you are allowed to say you believe this. However, anyone who states this, or who states the opposite needs to bring some argument and evidence to the issue if they expect their belief to be taken seriously. There is a massive amount of evidence for the reality of evolution. There is only some very circumstantial evidence and a weak logic chain for us being the only life in the universe. (The same is true of the reverse argument.) How are we sure that some of the bible is correct and some of it isnt? For example i dont believe the earth was created in 7 days but i absolutely do believe the entire universe was created and it was created for US. I dont believe the earth is 6,000 years old but i do believe the earth sits in the exact geometric center of our universe. I could go on and on with examples like this, but i think you get the idea. Its not that i am questioning god (creator) here, i am simply questioning the literature we have at our disposal that has us so confused. I accept that you are confused. Many people are not. This, perhaps, is because they choose to go on the basis of evidence and reason, rather than "belief". For example, if you went by evidence and reason you would understand that the universe probably does not have a centre. You would also understand that the majority of people who have thought about it accept the Bible as a mix of myth, history, poetry, law, philosophy, etc. Why are we convinced the answer is in science? If god did create this universe who do we think we are to try and figure this whole thing out, it is so far outside of our realm of understanding we cant even contemplate the idea of infinity. Many scientists (probably most) would accept that not all questions can be answered by science. However, science has been remarkably successful at answering many important questions in great detail. If the universe was created, the creator definitely made it a problem that could be solved in large part using the tools of science. A great example is drugs, antibiotics saved millions of lives but on the same token we need to know our limits and absolutely should not be fiddling with drugs that affect the mind, because we simply are no where near understanding how the brain actually functions, it is beyond our capacity. I truly believe we are getting to that point in our understanding of the universe currently, and as someone only after the truth i do not feel science is going to get us there alone. As noted previously, you are free to believe this, but without evidence you are not likely to convince many people. (I take it from your comments on drugs that you never drink alcohol and avoid coffee.) One thing i wont go into detail here but i believe plays some part is the fact we basically know nothing about even our fairly recent history. How are pyramids still standing today when they could have been built upwards of ~8k years ago, what exact processes were used in some of the mind blowing structures that are scattered around this planet that we really only have poor theories on how they were accomplished? Again this is only part of what i believe to be lost knowledge, i dont want to go more into detail about this because i dont know enough yet (and no,NOT aliens! I just believe we are missing a large part of our history to time) The pyramids were not built as long ago as 8,000 years. But even if they had been the surprise would be if they were not still standing. Our knowledge of structural mechanics, erosive forces and the like would lead us to expect that they will be standing many millenia hence. We have some quite detailed knowledge as to how they and many of the other pre-historic edifices were constructed. You would be aware of this if you acquired your understanding from articles written by serious, dedicated researchers rather than from documentaries and books focusing on, or produced by the words of charlatans out to make a quick buck from the gullible. I understand many of you have minds that work purely on the grounds of the scientific method and nothing i am saying here right now will have any impact on you because its all hypothetical and it cant be tested and that is fine. I just wanted to put some thoughts down on paper and maybe get a discussion going that does not turn religion based because as you can see i came from no place resembling religion, these are just my thoughts on the truth of our current existence. I honestly have no bias one way or the other, i have a real feeling that we were created its just that the way people view a creator when you tie our current religious texts into it really muddies everything up. I think to get to the truth science is going to have to bring a creator into the picture, my wonder is if science and people who believe in our current religious texts can come to an understanding that they need to work together to figure this all out. I know people love to think of things in black and white that is why i titled the post as i did, i feel the answer is in the middle somewhere, just how long is it going to take to get there. I refer you to my response to your first paragraph.
Strange Posted November 25, 2016 Posted November 25, 2016 Why am i not allowed to believe in a creator and evolution at the same time for example? You are allowed to believe in both. Many people do, including some evolutionary biologists. One of the founders of the big bang model was a Catholic priest. If god did create this universe who do we think we are to try and figure this whole thing out, it is so far outside of our realm of understanding we cant even contemplate the idea of infinity. Well, a lot of religious scientists (now and in the past) think it is pretty much our duty to understand as much as possible of creation or God's handiwork. Of course, we can't really know if God would prefer us to try and understand it all in detail or just stand there and go "wow". But my money would be on the former (after all, why would He/She gives us the ability to understand the universe if She/He didn't want us to use it). we cant even contemplate the idea of infinity. We have some very powerful tools for understanding infinity, so I'm not sure what this means. If you mean we can't imagine infinity, then so what. We can't imagine very large (finite) numbers either. Can you imagine the number of stars in the observable universe? I'm not sure we can imagine numbers bigger than about 7 (+/- 3 maybe). my wonder is if science and people who believe in our current religious texts can come to an understanding that they need to work together to figure this all out. As I say, there are plenty of religious scientists. There are religious universities that do scientific research. The Vatican has a very professional observatory that does some ground breaking work. (They clearly also have a sense of humour as one of their instruments is called LUCIFER.) How are we sure that some of the bible is correct and some of it isnt? Some of it is supported by evidence (and is therefore likely to be correct) and some is contradicted by evidence (and is therefore likely to be wrong). Some does not have overwhelming evidence one way or the other. Or is outside the domain of evidence: "an eye for an eye" vs "turn the other cheek" is a philosophical/ethical question that I on't think science can say much about, for example. But why the (Christian) bible, anyway? Why not the Torah or the Quran or Buddhist sutras or the Upanishads or ... absolutely should not be fiddling with drugs that affect the mind So we should not use any medications for depression, psychosis, schizophrenia, ADHD, Tourette's, etc. Even if they are effective and make people's lives easier?
Scotty99 Posted November 25, 2016 Author Posted November 25, 2016 Good point with why the christian bible. Its just the one i am familiar with, my line of thought here applies to them all tho really. I think they are all versions of the same knowledge that has been lost to time, and none are even close to the original. I think in the past we have known the truth and have been much much more advanced as a society than we are now. I think the earth is so old that civilization has reset over and over and over again, imho we are currently in a very early stage of development as a society. (even tho if you ask most they would say we are very progressed, i mean we can talk to our phone and it gives us answers). As for the drug question, i have relatives on anti-depressants and they say it does help, but i am of a firm belief that the brain is so complex we simply should not be fiddling around with it and these drugs do more harm than good in the long run. I think we just need to understand our limits, if we dont understand something and just see the end results....well that is where we should stop. As for the person commenting on the pyramids, imagine for a second if you will that the pyramids were the tallest structure on the planet for at least 4k years. How is that possible? That is the best example i can come up with to express my point about lost knowledge. How many times in just the past 100 years has the largest skyscraper been dethroned? 4k years does not sound like much when you think of the age of the planet, but that is a long dam time for something to be the tallest thing. Why did progress stop for FOUR THOUSAND YEARS? Like i said i have no idea how these two things are linked but i believe they are, i feel we have known the truth about our existence in the not too distant past, and who knows maybe we will find it at the bottom of the ocean in the not too distant future.
Ophiolite Posted November 25, 2016 Posted November 25, 2016 As for the person commenting on the pyramids, imagine for a second if you will that the pyramids were the tallest structure on the planet for at least 4k years. How is that possible? That is the best example i can come up with to express my point about lost knowledge. How many times in just the past 100 years has the largest skyscraper been dethroned? 4k years does not sound like much when you think of the age of the planet, but that is a long dam time for something to be the tallest thing. Why did progress stop for FOUR THOUSAND YEARS? Like i said i have no idea how these two things are linked but i believe they are, i feel we have known the truth about our existence in the not too distant past, and who knows maybe we will find it at the bottom of the ocean in the not too distant future. Two points: 1. You have no evidence to support your beliefs. 2. Your understanding of the past is badly wrong. Progress did not stop 4,000 years ago. There were advances in metallurgy, agriculture, military techniques, political structures, cartography, and so on.
Scotty99 Posted November 25, 2016 Author Posted November 25, 2016 Eh, "the Great Pyramid of Giza, at an original height of 146.5 metres (481 ft), being the tallest man–made structure in the world for over 3,800 years, until the construction of Lincoln Cathedral in 1300" From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_world's_tallest_buildings This is just one example of how little we know about the history of this planet. There is no argument you could propose to me that would explain why the pyramids were the largest man made structure on our planet for a minimum of 4k years (its probably longer, recent analysis say the pyramids could be upwards of 8k or more years or more). Even if people ~10k years ago didnt have wifi, i truly believe they were far more advanced in other ways, ways we cant even begin to understand and i feel that knowledge has been lost to time.....somehow. They knew something we don't, and i feel that something had to do with knowledge of a creator and how the universe works. I believe the religious texts of today are just tiny tiny bits of that knowledge that have gone through so many hands the source material is all but lost. -1
Strange Posted November 25, 2016 Posted November 25, 2016 Good point with why the christian bible. Its just the one i am familiar with, my line of thought here applies to them all tho really. I think they are all versions of the same knowledge that has been lost to time, and none are even close to the original. But they all say different things, some of them contradictory. Some of them appear to be written version of very old oral traditions, some were created in historic times. I don't really see how they can all be the same thing. I think the earth is so old that civilization has reset over and over and over again This is a pretty popular idea. There is, however, zero evidence for it. And, given the massive changes to the planet caused by current civilisation, it would be quite hard to miss. Unless you think that somehow the Earth literally gets reset each time (coal and oil recreated, etc). Otherwise, what resources did previous civilisations use. As for the person commenting on the pyramids, imagine for a second if you will that the pyramids were the tallest structure on the planet for at least 4k years. How is that possible? Because no one thought it was worth spending that much time and money on something so futile. Similar to the reasons that we haven't been back to the moon in a long time (which is used, in a similar way, by people who want to deny that ever happened). Not doing something is not the same as not being able to do it. Why did progress stop for FOUR THOUSAND YEARS? It didn't. Progress went in other directions. If you think that using vast amounts of money and resources to build massive tombs for an elite is "progress" then ... well, presumably you voted for Trump.
Scotty99 Posted November 25, 2016 Author Posted November 25, 2016 (edited) Because all religions have a creator, i think every single one of them could have had the same origin story its just that it was so long ago that they have each taken on a form of their own. And im not talking about abrahamic religions as we know today, like i propose in this thread we have had a deeper understanding of the universe in the past and these current religions are the remnants of that lost knowledge. As for your comments on the pyramids, how do you know the pyramids were a futile endeavor? We have zero clue what they were used for, our only real guess is they were burial chambers but in all honestly when you study the structure, that hardly holds up. I just cannot in my head come to any reasonable conclusion of how nothing bigger was built for FOUR THOUSAND years. 100 years sure, 200, 300 but 4000 just no. I am not even focusing on the word "progress" here, that can mean so many different things. Is it not baffling to anyone else the great pyramid was the largest man made structure for 4 millennia? Edited for clarity. Edited November 25, 2016 by Scotty99
StringJunky Posted November 25, 2016 Posted November 25, 2016 Because all religions have a creator, i think every single one of them could have had the same origin story its just that it was so long ago that they have each taken on a form of their own. And im not talking about abrahamic religions as we know today, like i propose in this thread we have had a deeper understanding of the universe in the past and these current religions are the remnants of that lost knowledge. As for your comments on the pyramids, how do you know the pyramids were a futile endeavor? We have zero clue what they were used for, our only real guess is they were burial chambers but in all honestly when you study the structure, that hardly holds up. I just cannot in my head come to any reasonable conclusion of how nothing bigger was built for FOUR THOUSAND years. 100 years sure, 200, 300 but 4000 just no. I am not even focusing on the word "progress" here, that can mean so many different things. Is it not baffling to anyone else the great pyramid was the largest man made structure for 4 millennia? Edited for clarity. The great pyramid was a whimsy to honour and contain a dead person. There was no NEED to build anything that big for that period of time.
Strange Posted November 26, 2016 Posted November 26, 2016 Because all religions have a creator I'm not sure that is true. Actually, I am certain it isn't but I can't remember which ones don't. (Shinto is one example, I think.) We have zero clue what they were used for, our only real guess is they were burial chambers but in all honestly when you study the structure, that hardly holds up. We have detailed records of who they were built by, who they were built for and the remains of the people buried in them. Not exactly "zero". I just cannot in my head come to any reasonable conclusion of how nothing bigger was built for FOUR THOUSAND years. People also stopped pulling the brains of the deceased out through the nose. Traditions change. Especially when they require vast wealth to maintain them. Is it not baffling to anyone else the great pyramid was the largest man made structure for 4 millennia? Not to me. But if you are lucky (?) "cladking" will come along with his even more insanely stupid theory. (Or you could look for his threads if you want a laugh.) 1
Scotty99 Posted November 27, 2016 Author Posted November 27, 2016 You call my ideas insanely stupid, could i not say the same thing about devoting your life to the scientific method when trying to unlock the secrets of the universe? I just feel very strongly that although science has taken us a long way, ultimately it will be for naught. I think if anything, an archaeologist or someone in a related field is where the real discoveries are going to come from. Scientists today are simply trying to be smarter than we are, and i think that is starting to become clear to everyone, scientists included (ive seen quite a few people come out about a creator being a very possible scenario, examples including max tegmark and michio kaku). I am not saying here you just drop everything in science, you scale back a little bit and just refocus your efforts on what science is good at doing. I don't want to say i feel bad for people that have devoted their entire lives to science because they put in the effort into something they were passionate about, but i do truly feel they will not be able to come to an ultimate answer about the truths of the universe.
Mordred Posted November 27, 2016 Posted November 27, 2016 (edited) I hear this a lot "Science gets in the way of understanding the physics of the universe" Never did make sense to me. Its usually by those that fully don't understand the scientific method. We never state "this is the way it is", we simply state to the best of our research the following holds as a reasonable approximation. We never stop trying to improve our understanding of any formula, model or theory. Not even those well tested over time. Even formulas as simple as f=ma is tested and retested in numerous and more elaborate tests. Some models even exist where f=ma is no longer considered accurate. MOND for example. I'm not going to get into a debate of religion vs science. Quite frankly I see no need for any competition between the two. Nowhere in the bible does it state "man shall remain ignorant" Quite frankly anyone that uses religion as a crutch to learning science is simply hurting themself. There is no reason why one cannot study physics or other sciences and still follow their religion. Edited November 27, 2016 by Mordred 1
Scotty99 Posted November 27, 2016 Author Posted November 27, 2016 I hear this a lot "Science gets in the way of understanding the physics of the universe" Never did make sense to me. Its usually by those that fully don't understand the scientific method. We never state "this is the way it is", we simply state to the best of our research the following holds as a reasonable approximation. We never stop trying to improve our understanding of any formula, model or theory. Not even those well tested over time. Even formulas as simple as f=ma is tested and retested in numerous and more elaborate tests. Some models even exist where f=ma is no longer considered accurate. MOND for example. I'm not going to get into a debate of religion vs science. Quite frankly I see no need for any competition between the two. Nowhere in the bible does it state "man shall remain ignorant" This thread is not about religion at all if you have read any of It, I think it very possible most if not all of our current religious texts are just bits and pieces of a greater knowledge that has been lost to time. It is my hope that if there is an original "master copy" of how we should live our lives, that it is one that does not divide people as these current incantations do. I think the universe is meant to be explored and studied, otherwise why are numbers so prevalent in nature for example, but right now i feel what is missing is a base for us all to stand on. I think that missing knowledge is of a creator we all can get behind, to me we are in a really weird spot in time and if i was to take a guess what these few past thousands years are to be called by our successors it would be "the lost ages". Again, just ramblings lol.
Mordred Posted November 27, 2016 Posted November 27, 2016 Historically speaking in some areas we are regaining knowledge. The base we stand upon is our recorded history of research. Its a fairly solid base. Yes it would be nice to find the original scripts. However I don't see how not finding them will prevent us from understanding science. Even in the scenario of current open questions such as the beginning of the universe. Which we still haven't answered.
Scotty99 Posted November 27, 2016 Author Posted November 27, 2016 Historically speaking in some areas we are regaining knowledge. The base we stand upon is our recorded history of research. Its a fairly solid base. Yes it would be nice to find the original scripts. However I don't see how not finding them will prevent us from understanding science. Even in the scenario of current open questions such as the beginning of the universe. Which we still haven't answered. That is not what i mean by a base, imagine it inherent to us all we have a creator (and i think deep, deep down we all have that locked away somewhere). This thread is basically my guess if the world was posed the question "what is the most likely guess to our existence, and where we are at today". If i had to put all my marbles in one basket it would be we had a creator, we have known this in the past, and our current religious teachings are only tiny parts of a greater knowledge that has been simply lost to time or possibly some event in our not too distant history. I just feel that it can be so much better than we have it, we have lost some basic knowledge throughout the years that has left us divided and looking for answers we shouldnt be having to look for.
Mordred Posted November 27, 2016 Posted November 27, 2016 (edited) But if we don't have to look for answers life would be extremely boring. How can one improve himself if he nothing to strive for? How does one develop his self confidence without being challenged? Quite frankly I wouldn't want all the answers handed to me by some religion or diety. Life would become meaningless without challenges. Edited November 27, 2016 by Mordred
Scotty99 Posted November 27, 2016 Author Posted November 27, 2016 (edited) But if we don't have to look for answers life would be extremely boring. How can one improve himself if he nothing to strive for? How does one develop his self confidence without being challenged? No i dont think it would be boring at all, i think if anything our studies would just go to different and possibly more interesting studies. We dont stop being inquisitive just because we know this place is here for us, it would all still be here for us to explore. I think your attitude about improving yourself would change if you KNEW we had a creator, the goal posts would simply change. To be clear ive had those same kind of thoughts, but i think the idea is that these big questions are kind of not the point. We have been denied a basic knowledge that we have had in the past that has us barking up the wrong tree, who even knows what questions we would have if we possessed the knowledge i suggest our ancestors did. Edited November 27, 2016 by Scotty99
Mordred Posted November 27, 2016 Posted November 27, 2016 (edited) Nah its more fun not having any answers handed to us. That includes faith, which wouldn't be needed if there was no doubt of a creator. The very reason I enjoy physics is the challenge. Regardless of whether or not its the wrong tree. One often learns more from mistakes than getting the answer right the first time. Edited November 27, 2016 by Mordred
Strange Posted November 27, 2016 Posted November 27, 2016 You call my ideas insanely stupid, could i not say the same thing about devoting your life to the scientific method when trying to unlock the secrets of the universe? As that is not what I devote my life to, that would be a straw man argument. I have a passing interest in the world around me, and science is one of the ways of finding out more about it. Certainly not the only one. But certainly the most productive. Scientists today are simply trying to be smarter than we are I think they are just trying to be exactly as smart as we can be (and no smarter). ive seen quite a few people come out about a creator being a very possible scenario, examples including max tegmark and michio kaku There was a recent thread about Michio Kaku in this regard. It turned out that the claim he had said this was a lie made up by some religious group. (Although, he says a lot of things that are nonsense, so I wouldn't have been surprised.) I am not saying here you just drop everything in science, you scale back a little bit and just refocus your efforts on what science is good at doing. As far as I can see, science only does what science is good at: finding explanations that work based on the available evidence. (Note that science has little if anything to do with the "truth" mentioned in your title; that is the domain of religion and philosophy.) i do truly feel they will not be able to come to an ultimate answer about the truths of the universe. I hope most scientists know that. If they don't they need a refresher course in the history and philosophy of science. Science hasn't been about "truth" for about a century. This thread is not about religion at all Really? That is not what i mean by a base, imagine it inherent to us all we have a creator (and i think deep, deep down we all have that locked away somewhere). So, yes it is completely about religion. I think your attitude about improving yourself would change if you KNEW we had a creator, the goal posts would simply change. How would it change? Many scientists believe in a creator (and possibly most did in the past) and their goal is to understand creation. For non-religious scientists, the goal is still to understand the world, even if they don't think it is created. I'm not sure what changes. The danger of a religious belief is that it can lead to a tendency to stop enquiry by saying "that is just the way the creator [God] created it (and He moves in mysterious ways so there is no point asking questions)."
Scotty99 Posted November 27, 2016 Author Posted November 27, 2016 I have no agenda here strange, if you want to say this thread is about religion you haven't read most of it lol. I am only spitballing here about where i believe we are in history, and how lost knowledge has put us in the spot we are. Basically, i have taken a lot of ideas that made sense to me and put them together into a scenario that i believe could be very possible. As for your last comment, you are making assumptions based off of current religions. What i am proposing is some of the current religions of the world could have some of the origin story right, or they could have none of it right. Knowing we have a creator does not mean we stop asking questions, it just means we stop asking that question.
Strange Posted November 27, 2016 Posted November 27, 2016 I have no agenda here strange, if you want to say this thread is about religion you haven't read most of it lol. Defining the concept of "religion" is notoriously difficult. However, personal beliefs (with no evidence) especially about a creator, almost certainly qualify. Basically, i have taken a lot of ideas that made sense to me and put them together One of the reasons that science works, is because it takes steps to get away from "ideas that make sense".
Memammal Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) @ Scotty99: There is a popular meme doing the rounds that wisdom is to be found where beliefs and facts unite with each other. Maybe best to start there. You have the facts at your disposal. Use that and discard those beliefs that contradict any facts; after all, why would one keep on believing in lies? That would still leave you with some possibilities in the form of uncertainties that you can cling onto and believe in. The next step will be to research the origins of religion, or any beliefs in the supernatural. Explore the path that our ancestors have followed i.t.o. forming their beliefs and superstitions (about who or what protected them, who or what provided thunder, food, love, what they believed would happen to the dead, etc). Open up your inquisitive mind and dig into the possible reasons as to why large, but diverse groups of humans still have strong alliances with specific organised religions (and those who firmly hold on to their indigenous superstitions), each associated with its own interpretation of a supernatural deity/spirit and why all of them seem to be convinced that their belief is the only one that works for them, the only truth, the only path to something better that await them in the afterlife. In doing this, ask yourself why said deities always seem to project a time/cultural-specific human construct and finally, if it is conceivable that nature might have created- and still sustain itself...which would make science even more interesting and more compelling, don't you think? Edited November 28, 2016 by Memammal
Scotty99 Posted November 28, 2016 Author Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) You aren't grasping the gist of my post @memammal. I will bullet point a few reasons as to why i believe what i do: ~I believe in a creator, but i am not a fan of religions for the obvious reasons that i have outlined in this thread. I think the truth about a creator would not be so dividing as our current religions are. ~The idea of geocentrism had a big impact on me. I did not even HEAR of this concept until i was 34 years old, and the fact of the matter is i have read nothing that 100% debunks the possibility of the earth being in the center of the universe in our relativistic model of today. The problem i had with geocentrism was the source (a guy by the name of robert sungenis) but that is not enough for me to give up on the idea, as i realize he has his agenda but that does not make the theory wrong because of the unfortunate way i stumbled upon the information. ~I believe we are a society with amnesia. Most of this comes from our full lack of understanding of how old ancient civilizations really are, and the how and why of the magnificent structures they left behind. I feel our ancestors operated at a higher level of understanding of the universe and were far more advanced than we are now. ~I feel it to be very possible the earth is so old society has reset over and over again, evidence of this being lost to time. This one i am less sure on, but interesting to me nonetheless. ~The world is how it is, numbers present themselves in nature for a reason....whoever created it for us WANTS us to explore it. Knowing a creator exists does not mean we stop asking questions, again it just means we stop asking that question....which i dont know why so many in this thread make that out to be a bad thing. Science is a great tool and i absolutely respect those who dedicated their lives to it but i personally have made the choice to take the path less traveled. There are a lot of smart people working in the field today, i feel personally i am better suited to what you guys would consider the fringe fields i suppose. I dont want to make this about geocentrism or ancient civilizations, if you want to comment about them sure but i already had a large geocentrism thread that was closed. (which i got a lot of positive feedback from in private messages btw, the fact that thread got so popular tells me there is interest in it....for whatever reason) This thread is just me rambling about what i believe to be a possible truth, i am not exactly sure why people are trying to turn it into something different by giving advice on what i should be doing, maybe its because its so off the wall people dont know how to reply, i dont know lol. Like i stated in the OP the truth matters to me for some reason and im not exactly sure why. I feel that its a race to figure out who is right and this is the best guess that i have today. Edited November 28, 2016 by Scotty99
Memammal Posted November 28, 2016 Posted November 28, 2016 @ Scotty99: If you follow the advice given in the first four sentences of my post, you should be able to discard the idea's re the Earth being at the centre of the universe or human civilizations being recycled here on this planet.
Scotty99 Posted November 28, 2016 Author Posted November 28, 2016 @ Scotty99: If you follow the advice given in the first four sentences of my post, you should be able to discard the idea's re the Earth being at the centre of the universe or human civilizations being recycled here on this planet. Not sure why it matters to you why i think this way lol, what harm am i doing in imagining a scenario that makes sense to me? I am in no way pushing this on anyone, i just wanted to put my thoughts down on paper. The thread is kind of an exercise in if you had to take a guess, what do you think is the most likely the truth of our existence.
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