electrocommunication for fishies

[fredreload]

I am looking at this Wikipedia page of how fish communicate using electric field and it blows my mind. How exactly does the fish send and receive an electric field with their cells?

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bacteria-can-convey-electrical-messages-the-same-way-neurons-do/

 

P.S. I'm studying this to program the nanomachine, actual programming method is still being thought up, it might has to be mechanical

P.S. They didn't mention how the bacteria receive this electrical signal though = =

Edited November 30, 2016 by fredreload

[John Cuthber]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_organ

[fredreload]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_organ

Right, that's for the fishies, but not the bacteria. I want to shrink it down so that bacteria can use electrocommunication wirelessly. The page above I linked also did not describe how bacteria receive the chemical potassium electrical signal, my speculation is that it enters the neuronal membrane causing an action potential. But then I need to know how this action potential is directed to the bacteria's reaction that stops it from reproducing, its reaction to this stimulus is not described, it does not have a brain. And right, we can provide the bacteria with electroreceptors then program it using the method mentioned above

Edited December 1, 2016 by fredreload

[CharonY]

What types of neurons do bacteria possess?

[Moontanman]

I am familiar with electric fishes, not so sure about bacteria...

[CharonY]

Well bacteria can respond to electromagenetic fields. Just nothing like described above.

[fredreload]

The bacteria does not have neurons, but they respond to a surge of potassium ions like the neurons, you can read it in the article I posted in the first post, not sure about bacteria responds to the stimulus though

Well bacteria can respond to electromagenetic fields. Just nothing like described above.

Good call, I'll look into it

[CharonY]

Note while the work from that group is interesting for a number of reasons, it still requires to be replicated in broader context. While it could indeed be a new mechanisms, it is certainly not canon yet. I have to admit that I only skimmed the paper when it came out so I cannot really say whether there were issues with methodology or not (it was far more convincing on first glance than other previous studies).

[fredreload]

Note while the work from that group is interesting for a number of reasons, it still requires to be replicated in broader context. While it could indeed be a new mechanisms, it is certainly not canon yet. I have to admit that I only skimmed the paper when it came out so I cannot really say whether there were issues with methodology or not (it was far more convincing on first glance than other previous studies).

My idea is more about how to program a nanomachine that would respond wirelessly, although how electromagnetic radiation affects bacteria is also interesting as you brought up. Well to begin with we know that magnetic field can cause a stimulation in the neurons, that's how the transcranial stimulation device is built. So with that idea in mind, electromagnetic radiation can also cause an inbalance in potassium ion distribution, which in terms affect the bacteria, Note that I only heard about it in the article, how magnetic field create a electrical impulse in the neurons is still out of my reach. Then to duplicate that same process in the bacteria is another question

Edited December 6, 2016 by fredreload

[AbstractDreamer]

Around 2 years ago, I recall someone mentioning they successfully cultivated bacteria that fed directly off electricity.

Its pretty mainstream these days.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25894-meet-the-electric-life-forms-that-live-on-pure-energy/

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20160613-there-are-microbes-that-eat-and-poo-nothing-but-electricity

 

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160621-electron-eating-microbes-found-in-odd-places/

 

 

That's not the same as bacteria being able to sense electricity, though its quite possible. They certainly react to it.

Sensory or reactionary capability is a step towards communication.

Edited December 6, 2016 by AbstractDreamer

[fredreload]

Around 2 years ago, I recall someone mentioning they successfully cultivated bacteria that fed directly off electricity.

Its pretty mainstream these days.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25894-meet-the-electric-life-forms-that-live-on-pure-energy/

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20160613-there-are-microbes-that-eat-and-poo-nothing-but-electricity

 

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160621-electron-eating-microbes-found-in-odd-places/

 

 

That's not the same as bacteria being able to sense electricity, though its quite possible. They certainly react to it.

Sensory or reactionary capability is a step towards communication.

Very interesting, I wonder if they have a set of antennas lol, if they do they can feed off radio wave

[AbstractDreamer]

Doubtful on radiowaves. This is biological evolution. It requires that radiowaves need to have been around for millions of years to give biology a chance to exploit it.

 

On the other hand, free electrons is what these bacterium are "feeding" on. I guess there are many kinds of natural rocks, perhaps metallic in nature that can provide such an environment.

 

You might be able to make any old metal stick antenna that will receives radiowaves that will then transform the EM wave into a free electrons in the antenna. Stick your antenna in a soup of electric-feeding bacteria, and then control the behaviour of bacteria via the radiowave somehow.

 

That's not to say you cant get a primordial soup of complex molecules, and semi DNA strands and some simple bacterium, subject it to high energy radiowaves, and let nature run it course. Maybe something will form that will exploit the energy in the radiowaves directly.

Edited December 6, 2016 by AbstractDreamer

[fredreload]

Doubtful on radiowaves. This is biological evolution. It requires that radiowaves need to have been around for millions of years to give biology a chance to exploit it.

 

On the other hand, free electrons is what these bacterium are "feeding" on. I guess there are many kinds of natural rocks, perhaps metallic in nature that can provide such an environment.

 

You might be able to make any old metal stick antenna that will receives radiowaves that will then transform the EM wave into a free electrons in the antenna. Stick your antenna in a soup of electric-feeding bacteria, and then control the behaviour of bacteria via the radiowave somehow.

 

That's not to say you cant get a primordial soup of complex molecules, and semi DNA strands and some simple bacterium, subject it to high energy radiowaves, and let nature run it course. Maybe something will form that will exploit the energy in the radiowaves directly.

Hmm, my idea is to have radio wave program the machine at a nano scale mechanically, I'm not sure if they can store instructions but I doubt you can build a computer at this size. But still looking at it as a power source is still a good idea, I just need to be able to control it mechanically based on wireless instructions, so I was eager to know how the bacteria interprets potassium inbalance to stop its reproduction process

[StringJunky]

Fredreload: you seem uncertain about the the word fish. In all instances of use, both in single and plural form, it is fish.

 

"This is a fish"

 

"There are lots of fish in the lake"

 

"How many fish have you caught"

Edited December 6, 2016 by StringJunky

[fredreload]

Fredreload: you seem uncertain about the the word fish. In all instances of use, both in single and plural form, it is fish.

 

"This is a fish"

 

"There are lots of fish in the lake"

 

"How many fish have you caught"

I'm sorry I must have remembered it from some movie >.<

[StringJunky]

I'm sorry I must have remembered it from some movie >.<

I wasn't criticising; just thought you might like to know the correct form.

[CharonY]

My idea is more about how to program a nanomachine that would respond wirelessly, although how electromagnetic radiation affects bacteria is also interesting as you brought up. Well to begin with we know that magnetic field can cause a stimulation in the neurons, that's how the transcranial stimulation device is built. So with that idea in mind, electromagnetic radiation can also cause an inbalance in potassium ion distribution, which in terms affect the bacteria, Note that I only heard about it in the article, how magnetic field create a electrical impulse in the neurons is still out of my reach. Then to duplicate that same process in the bacteria is another question

 

Except that you may have quite a different understanding of what nanomachines are able to do. What do you mean with wireless and how would you design a responsive circuit on the nanoscale?

 

Around 2 years ago, I recall someone mentioning they successfully cultivated bacteria that fed directly off electricity.

Its pretty mainstream these days.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25894-meet-the-electric-life-forms-that-live-on-pure-energy/

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20160613-there-are-microbes-that-eat-and-poo-nothing-but-electricity

 

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160621-electron-eating-microbes-found-in-odd-places/

 

 

That's not the same as bacteria being able to sense electricity, though its quite possible. They certainly react to it.

Sensory or reactionary capability is a step towards communication.

 

The articles are horrible. What they do is provide bacteria electrons for respiration. All organisms do it. The only difference to what normally happens is that they deliver it via an electrode.

 

There is a difference between speculative science and pure bullshitting, btw.

[Moontanman]

Fredreload: you seem uncertain about the the word fish. In all instances of use, both in single and plural form, it is fish.

 

"This is a fish"

 

"There are lots of fish in the lake"

 

"How many fish have you caught"

 

 

Not entirely correct my friend, fish is only correct if you are talking about one species of fish, fishes is the plural used if you talking about many species of fish.

I thought this thread was about electro communication in fishes...

[StringJunky]

 

 

Not entirely correct my friend, fish is only correct if you are talking about one species of fish, fishes is the plural used if you talking about many species of fish.

I thought this thread was about electro communication in fishes...

OK. Still used by some in that form but it is not generally modern usage. It belongs with Thee and Thou. And now to our usual programming...

[Moontanman]

OK. Still used by some in that form but it is not generally modern usage. It belongs with Thee and Thou. And now to our usual programming...

 

It is still used in science and communicates the idea of multiple groups of fishes.

 

Used in a sentence it would be like this.

 

"There are several groups of electric "fishes" on Earth today, Knifefish would be one such group mainly from south america, mormyrids would be one group of fish from africa but both groups of "fishes" use electricity to navigate and communicate..."

[StringJunky]

 

It is still used in science and communicates the idea of multiple groups of fishes.

 

Used in a sentence it would be like this.

 

"There are several groups of electric "fishes" on Earth today, Knifefish would be one such group mainly from south america, mormyrids would be one group of fish from africa but both groups of "fishes" use electricity to navigate and communicate..."

I agreed.