Itoero Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 Which came first, the chicken or the egg? The egg is just an unborn chicken (same dna), it's like asking "Which came first, the embryo or the fully grown human?" The chicken egg of course came first. I don't understand why this is considered a causality dilemma.
Klaynos Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 It's trivially the egg and only depends on where you draw the line between modern chicken or not modern chicken. 2
Moontanman Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 The egg, because eggs existed before there were chickens...
Phi for All Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 Something that was almost a chicken laid the first chicken egg.
Danijel Gorupec Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 Something that was almost a chicken laid the first chicken egg. Interesting... I would consider a "chicken egg" to be an egg produced by a chicken (at least in my native language - is understanding in English any different?). I would not consider a "chicken egg" to be and egg that contains a chicken embryo. That is how I understand my language. BTW, what would be an unfertilized egg laid down by a chicken - is it still called a "chicken egg" in English language?
John Cuthber Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 If you take the definition of being a chicken (rather than some other earlier bird) as being having some critical combination of DNA then the chicken came first. That DNA was present as soon as the gametes met, but the egg (in the sense of the shell, yolk and white) formed round that embryo. Of course,if you take the "fertilised egg cell" as being the first chicken then the chicken and egg came into being at the same time. It's trivially the egg and only depends on where you draw the line between modern chicken or not modern chicken. It's not "trivially" anything, because it depends on what you call an egg as well as what you call a chicken.
StringJunky Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 It's not "trivially" anything, because it depends on what you call an egg as well as what you call a chicken. The contents of the egg holds the potential for the new species, which at the point of being laid is not a chicken yet but will be.
Phi for All Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 My answer is based on the moment in speciation (a moment which doesn't really exist) where one species becomes another. An almost-chicken had to lay the first actual chicken egg. 1
StringJunky Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 My answer is based on the moment in speciation (a moment which doesn't really exist) where one species becomes another. An almost-chicken had to lay the first actual chicken egg. Yes, in reality. It's not a black-and-white transition.
Delta1212 Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 Is a chicken egg an egg that hatches into a chicken, or an egg that is laid by a chicken? The definition you use gives you the answer.
John Cuthber Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 The contents of the egg holds the potential for the new species, which at the point of being laid is not a chicken yet but will be. As I said, it's not trivial. If it was, it wouldn't be a prototype paradox.
Moontanman Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 I do not think trivial is the right word, but eggs existed before mammals or reptiles, the amniotic egg was first, before there were chickens or dinosaurs, or reptiles...
Phi for All Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 I do not think trivial is the right word, but eggs existed before mammals or reptiles, the amniotic egg was first, before there were chickens or dinosaurs, or reptiles... I think trivial is the right word for the case you're making. I was thinking the paradox refers to chickens and chicken eggs.
Ophiolite Posted December 4, 2016 Posted December 4, 2016 It's late. I'm tired. Forgive me. If you crossed a chicken with a road, would you get a Rhode Island Red?
Phi for All Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 If you crossed a chicken with a road, would you get a Rhode Island Red? Absolutely. And it would taste just like snake and frog's legs. 1
arc Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 (edited) The contents of the egg holds the potential for the new species, which at the point of being laid is not a chicken yet but will be. Is a chicken egg an egg that hatches into a chicken, or an egg that is laid by a chicken? The definition you use gives you the answer. If a chicken lays an egg in the forest and no one is there to hear it . . . . . . . Edited December 5, 2016 by arc
AbstractDreamer Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 If an almost-chicken laid an almost-chicken egg, and the mutation happened within the egg after it was laid, but before it hatched. Then it was an almost-chicken egg that turned into a chicken egg >> the chicken egg came first. On the other hand if what was hatched was an almost-chicken that then mutated into a chicken >> the chicken came first.
StringJunky Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 If an almost-chicken laid an almost-chicken egg, and the mutation happened within the egg after it was laid, but before it hatched. Then it was an almost-chicken egg that turned into a chicken egg >> the chicken egg came first. On the other hand if what was hatched was an almost-chicken that then mutated into a chicken >> the chicken came first. AS Moon said: eggs even came before birds
AbstractDreamer Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 AS Moon said: eggs even came before birds Eggs didn't precede amoeba, bacteria, viruses, self replicating molecules.
StringJunky Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 Eggs didn't precede amoeba, bacteria, viruses, self replicating molecules. I never implied that.
AbstractDreamer Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 (edited) I never implied that. I know, i just didn't get Moon's point. What does eggs coming before birds have to do with chickens and chicken eggs? IMO, the adjective describes what comes out, not who it belongs to. A chicken egg hatches into a chicken. A chicken's egg comes from a chicken. If a goat laid a chicken egg, it will hatch into a chicken. The egg is of chickeness. If a chicken laid a goat egg, it will hatch into a goat. The egg is of goatness. Edited December 5, 2016 by AbstractDreamer
StringJunky Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 (edited) I know, i just didn't get Moon's point. What does eggs coming before birds have to do with chickens and chicken eggs? That eggs are the melting pots of new species. He was being more general. Edited December 5, 2016 by StringJunky
AbstractDreamer Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 If a goat laid a chicken egg, it will hatch into a chicken. The egg is of chickeness, from goatness If a chicken laid a goat egg, it will hatch into a goat. The egg is of goatness, from chickeness. conversely If a chicken egg, laid by a chicken, hatches into a goat. The egg is of goatness, from chickeness. If a goat egg, laid by goat, hatches into a chicken. The egg is of chickeness, from goatness. Which one makes the most sense?
Delta1212 Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 If a goat laid a chicken egg, it will hatch into a chicken. The egg is of chickeness, from goatness If a chicken laid a goat egg, it will hatch into a goat. The egg is of goatness, from chickeness. conversely If a chicken egg, laid by a chicken, hatches into a goat. The egg is of goatness, from chickeness. If a goat egg, laid by goat, hatches into a chicken. The egg is of chickeness, from goatness. Which one makes the most sense? Roosters don't lay eggs.
Phi for All Posted December 5, 2016 Posted December 5, 2016 Roosters don't lay eggs. Technically though, they came first. 1
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