Let's talk about Bitcoin

[Genecks]

I didn't see any general discussion immediate bitcoin threads on SFN in the search the last time I looked, so I am making this thread. I'm outsourcing.

 

If you don't know about bitcoin, you may want to start here: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

 

 

I have read and read about the bitcoin project, and it seems great. I took some accounting classes in high school, been paid a paycheck, had to experience what it's like to "know the value of a dollar," so I understand the principles of what is going on. What I like about Bitcoin is that on a more mature level, it's like it's auditing the value of a dollar so that you REALLY know what it means to earn that dollar, thus reducing "fraud" as Satoshi Nakamoto put in his paper. However, if we talk away the dimensionality of "fraud" and call it negligence/ignorance/etc. we may still be on the same page.

 

I don't know what Satoshi's background was/is, but this system is extremely clever. I reason people have considered making such a system, but this thing can punch out data. If I'm slamming my fist on the table saying, "I wanna see results, and I want to see them today," the Bitcoin project does a great job of that.

 

I think there are a lot of competing interests against the Bitcoin project. As such, from reading sources about Bitcoin throughout the Internet, it seems people are conflicting their views and not keeping descriptive about what's going on. There appears to be a level of sophistry, deceit, etc.. It seems like there is information warfare going on in relation to the Bitcoin project. In theory, it appears mostly sound. What Satoshi appears to have argued is that if you can get a fast enough computer to screw it all up, then like you might be able to break it. But as the project goes on, the level of difficulty increases. Otherwise, it keeps chugging away at being hardcore. It seems like a positive feedback loop. But, for what I understand, as Satoshi seems to mention, if you CAN break it, re-invest in it again for auditing to occur so that Bitcoin can keep doing what it's supposed to be doing. Seems like a win-win situation. From my perspective of the Satoshi "paper," if you could falsify Bitcoin, it just comes back stronger than before.

 

So, of the things...

 

1. Bitcoin vs. Gold

2. The block size

 

(Bitcoin vs. Gold)

I read one source, and it was denying Bitcoin as a correlatory to gold, but another said that Bitcoin and gold were strongly negatively correlated. I suck on a Mac, so I'm having a hard time adjusting, so no, I'm not grabbing the sources at the moment. However, from the way I interpreted the data, it seems as though Bitcoin has been a force that pulled America out of the recession.

 

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-gold-prices-correlated/

https://tradeblock.com/blog/bitcoin-correlations-to-macro-environment-gold-and-yuan-standouts

 

 

(The block size)

Then there is this alleged block size issue. It seems like people are complaining that transactions are not going fast enough. However, I have read Satoshi Nakamoto's paper. If I understand correctly, the complaining is extremely petty. Due to how increased decentralization is occurring over time, the rate of decentralization should compensate for increased users and increased amounts of transactions. Otherwise, it appears that people are pushing fluff in order to decentralize and destroy the bitcoin project by alleging there is an issue when there really isn't an issue, as if but "attempting" to get the Bitcoin project to fork via sophistry.

 

(one other thing)

 

It seems to me that, wow, that Bitcoin might actually bring old school computers back from the dead. One argument appears to be that Bitcoin might fail due to a lack of CPU speed to keep increasing. However, it appears to me that with decentralization, the network will compensate... So, I think that means old-school tech, such as 1980s computers, might pop up to start processing transactions in a decentralized fashion. Where there is a lack of super-fast CPUs, then a large number of old-school CPUs will pop-up in a decentralized manner to compensate (network load dispersal). I guess that is like saying Earth will become Cybertron.

 

There are interesting questions, though. Such as, well, where are the time traveler's? I guess if Bitcoin keeps continuing the way it does, it will expose individuals pushing illusion and deceit.

 

(i'll be awesome)

 

So, I'll be awesome and contrib some more. I watched the Bitcoin video The Rise and Rise of Bitcoin.

 

http://bitcoindoc.com/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2821314/

 

The dude seems to have made a reptillian-complex "mistake," which was thinking he could capitalize on a communistic project. At least, I'll argue that for the moment. He was part of Bitcoin, "tried" to make some kaching in the process, and later on wanted to sell his box to "try" and reclaim money. When I saw that, I thought "Well, the market pushed him out of Bitcoin," but really ought to have been said was, "He became schizoaffective." Or something like that. Because what he ought to have done was setup his box and walk away until the market persuaded him to decentralize his box. Now, it could be argued that the market (perhaps even more arguable the influence of the Bitcoin project itself) persuaded him to decentralize his box by selling it off. However, well enough, with the decentralization idea, it may have been well enough for him to setup a box and walk away. I think he was schizoaffective in the sense that he "thought" he was going to turn a profit and "increase" his wealth. From my interpretation, it appears (in a sense) that the project does auditing for you so that you have an "increased" realization of the wealth you have.

 

(aside)

 

I probably learned about Bitcoin from totse or zoklet, but I'm not sure. I learned about it long ago, probably when it first started (was probably at UIChicago, thus too busy to deal with it). But looking at it again, it's really cool.

 

(another thing)

 

I only saw one serious problem with bitcoin. However, I think people should keep using Bitcoin UNTIL the market forces the new technology out. Because the whole aspect of auditing and decentralization is wayyy more important and Bitcoin is already doing an excellent job of that. So, it's like saying that my issue is petty and would be resolved in the far future, and even if Bitcoin is falsified on this issue, Bitcoin will continue to be used until whenever. It's this 0.0000008 (Satoshi coin) whatever level of increment. This numerical minimum operand (if you will) doesn't seem to be good. I would think Satoshi should have used some fraction of pi (a pi multiple) to be handed out from mining. Allegedly, the last amount of bitcoin to be mined is a Satoshi? Well, seems like it would be better if it was some universal variable, such as "pi." Thus a multiple of pi or something like that. Perhaps someone sees what I'm arguing. Thus rather than a Satoshi it would have been a fraction of pi. With that in mind, the unit circle could be taken into consideration, along with the sine wave/function and trigonometric interpretations of reality, thus reducing any serious issues. I'd love it if Satoshi "himself" could comment on that issue. I guess that's like saying there should have been a "pi halving."

 

read more about pi here: http://www.jasonthalken.com/2015/05/is-pi-really-universal.html

 

Regardless, the technology, I would think, for the decentralization and to manage such a pi system would be darn near similar to the Bitcoin system's decentralization methodology, making it kind of not so immediate of a concern. The concern appears to be the decentralization and increase of a system to deal with network load for a P2P system. The main concern is building the P2P system to help deal with the double-spending problem. I would much rather see Bitcoin continue to be used and my minimum numerical operand issue to be considered petty. I think well enough that Bitcoin could be translated ("currency exchanged") for a different monetary system soon enough after it does a lot of its auditing. Just like there is an alleged "meeting point" for how X amount Bitcoin matches Y amount United States Dollars, there ought to be something to match the pi operand view. Thus, a buy-sell point would be figured out without too much trouble. So, it wouldn't be too much of an issue to KEEP USING BITCOIN until enough people can work together on a more accurate system (assuming my pi view is more "accurate"). So, Bitcoin might be falsified on the "Satoshi standard," but the "Pi standard" might take over. So, the Satoshi standard would continue to be used until the Pi standard is adopted, and "gravity" or "market forces" would eventually let that happen. Again, the whole P2P system appears to be the most important aspect rather than a Satoshi or Pi standard: Getting the network built for trading of widgets seems more important at the moment than the auditing of the widgets themself. Both are important. However, for a P2P system, you want to focus on the decentralization which is correlated if but helps the auditing process. I mean, if there are ridiculous numbers of computers distributed out to handle the network load and a "better" system that is P2P comes along, all people really got to do is convert the cash and setup the new software. That appears to be something that would be MUCH easier than totally starting from a system with one computer in like Greenland doing a lot of the crunching and WAITING AND WAITING for the load and auditing system to be distributed throughout.

 

Sand dollars to Gold to dollars/yen/AUS/etc.. to Bitcoin to "other P2P cash"

 

KEEP USING BITCOIN. I'm like totally not going to program that pi stuff. lol, uhh no. *smh* no... A series of falsifications might create a "too big to fail" belief, but that would be wrong. The banks should not have been bailed out by the U.S. government, as I believed. That's like saying that each time someone builds a house of cards, slap it down. Because the next house of cards is going to be "better looking" and more "accurate." Regardless, the auditing that Bitcoin is doing is more than likely WAYYYYYYY more accurate than the Federal Reserve due to human error in the Federal Reserve, so I think people can be patient enough with Bitcoin and take the "loss" if and when a "better" system comes about. Again, it seems like it's more about "helping" or auditing for the realization of wealth rather than schizoaffectively "attempting" to get rich. Bitcoin is wayyy better than USD, for how I perceive things. So, Bitcoin is really cool and should continue to be used until enough people can "get together" on something more "accurate." There would be a "cost" to getting the P2P network setup, so people might bicker and argue about that and use an X amount Bitcoin (Satoshi standard) trades for Y amount Bitcoin (pi standard). Or Genecks standard. That'd be cool, too.

 

 

POINTS IF ANYONE CAN PULL OUT SATOSHI'S THESIS FROM THE PAPER!! (I'll give out rep for decent attempts). understandably, you might argue that it's dependent on Satoshi. I'll consider what theses people argue was "his" thesis, though.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Genecks

[Endy0816]

Technical issues, somewhat obvious one with an ever-growing blockchain. Less obvious one with the possibility to irreversibly lose money. Chargebacks also have their place in my opinion. The algorithm itself is decent, with most attacks in the very hypothetical range.

 

Human factors, defacto backing via the sometimes shifty Exchanges. Prominent maybe hacking maybe inside job scandals. Sometimes operating as an ill advised escrow service. Severe declines in value though to be fair equally meteoric rises. In some cases people are stealing processing power to do mining. The equivalent of an illegal gold mine and using your resources to boot.

 

I suspect we will end up seeing a variety of digital currencies to satisfy individuals, groups and governments; looking for different options.

[fiveworlds]

The main problems with bitcoin are

 

1. Security

2. Black Market

 

From a security standpoint it is possible to get a virus on your computer and therefore lose the bitcoin wallet. Bitcoin provides a fairly untraceable online currency for criminals to exchange goods.

[Genecks]

So, in relation to "pulling out a thesis," I'll give an interpretation of what I think Satoshi Nakamoto's thesis was: Bitcoin is good because it works toward preventing the double-spending problem.

- I relate it to Karl Marx's thesis from the Communist Manifesto, "In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."

- I like to spin Karl Marx with my educational neuroscience background and say the following: Abolition of the schizoaffective disorder (Block universe theory argument).

- I will spin it further even more because of some law knowledge I have: Abolition of negligence.

 

(Also, I'm closing on the idea of giving out rep for pulling out a thesis). However, if you want to provide one, go for it.

 

I'll spend some time looking at the arguments provided in this thread. From which, I'll work toward providing counter arguments.

 

I'll tackle one right now:

 

The main problems with bitcoin are

 

1. Security

2. Black Market

 

From a security standpoint it is possible to get a virus on your computer and therefore lose the bitcoin wallet. Bitcoin provides a fairly untraceable online currency for criminals to exchange goods.

 

1. The virus has to get there first. It's only possible if its occurs. However, the term "lose" is not something I care for. From a communist interpretation, an individual is shorting a good for someone. That's like me burning down the place you live (assuming you live in an apartment or house) to make it cheaper and more efficient for you to live without a house. Sure, you might at first be all like, "OMG, WTF ARE YOU DOING?!?!?!" But then when you lose your schizoaffective disorder you're all like, "Wait.... wait a moment... huhn.... it's become cheaper and more efficient for me to live without a house." AKA you might get better at being a Street Fighter or Jeremiah Johnson type.

see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Destructors

 

- Consider the burning of the house to be like the release of resources back to society.

 

2. Black market issue

 

Well, I'll posit (block universe theory and problem of induction) that we already live in anarchy. So, well, "mobocrats" provide an illusion of order (provide a shizoaffective delusion). And that what you call a black market starts fades away (AKA increased legalization of things that were previously considered illegal). Although Silk Road was shut down, there has allegedly been an increase in the legalization of marijuana in the United States of America (from various sources I come across). In Illinois, simple possession of marijuana has become a fine rather than jail time.

 

 

Technical issues, somewhat obvious one with an ever-growing blockchain. Less obvious one with the possibility to irreversibly lose money. Chargebacks also have their place in my opinion. The algorithm itself is decent, with most attacks in the very hypothetical range.

 

Human factors, defacto backing via the sometimes shifty Exchanges. Prominent maybe hacking maybe inside job scandals. Sometimes operating as an ill advised escrow service. Severe declines in value though to be fair equally meteoric rises. In some cases people are stealing processing power to do mining. The equivalent of an illegal gold mine and using your resources to boot.

 

I suspect we will end up seeing a variety of digital currencies to satisfy individuals, groups and governments; looking for different options.

 

1. I have not read anything about people saying there will be problems with building efficient hard drives for storage of the block chain.

2. Intel appears to be having an issue with making CPUs. (source: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/600716/intel-chips-will-have-to-sacrifice-speed-gains-for-energy-savings/)

another link: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601441/moores-law-is-dead-now-what/

3. Network load distribution means more computers rather than one large supercomputer handling mining and transactions.

4. I don't perceive things as "loss" but instead "shorting," which is somewhat of an "illusion" itself.

5. I'll take a look into the chargeback issue. I don't think that ought to be a serious issue. See #4.

6. Again, #4, in relation to human factors, etc, inside jobs, etc, ....

7. Again, rather than stealing, shorting.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Genecks

[fiveworlds]

The virus has to get there first. It's only possible if its occurs

 

 

It did to me so I don't see it as an unreasonable problem. If I use a bank I know that my data is at least backed up in triplicate in multiple datacentres bitcoin has nowhere near that level of security.

[Strange]

 

 

It did to me so I don't see it as an unreasonable problem. If I use a bank I know that my data is at least backed up in triplicate in multiple datacentres bitcoin has nowhere near that level of security.

 

 

But if the virus is actually a trojan or key logger, and someone steals all the money from your bank then all those backups won't help.

[fiveworlds]

But if the virus is actually a trojan or key logger, and someone steals all the money from your bank then all those backups won't help​

 

 

Not necessarily your bank can keep track of your frequently used devices and public ip address and notify you of irregular money transfers. Also you won't lose all your money if your house happens to burn down. Also paypal isn't all that secure either accounts are sold on the dark web.

[Genecks]

I'm going to move around from the computer I'm using and maybe comeback in a week or more to this thread.

 

Some things I'd like to clarify:

1. By trigonometric interpretation of reality, for a lack of a better term, I think the better term would have been mathematical universe hypothesis.

2. If Pi radians is equivalent to the maximum number of potential bitcoins produced, then I believe it's reasonable to argue that a multiple of Pi helps create variability in a price floor, whereas the Satoshi coin is currently the price floor with the Bitcoin project (if I understand correctly).

3. Pi would be 360-degrees. Max. number of bitcoins able to be produced would be ~21 millions (whatever it has been marked at, and that amount would be equivalent to 360-degrees, too, right?

3.a. That is relevant to a unit circle discussion

[Endy0816]

Shorting is different than theft... Shorting boils down to a bet against something. You haven't stolen anything.

 

What I'm talking about is how we naturally tend to misplace money. With bitcoin lost access(for whatever reason), is the equivalent to losing change down a storm drain. The problem is there isn't a government that can simply print more to replace it. Additional bitcoins can be mined(up to the approaching limit), but there will never be a replacement for the ones lost. Over time there'll simply be less and less in effective existence.

 

http://readwrite.com/2014/01/13/what-happens-to-lost-bitcoins/

 

 

It is processing power rather than memory that is the issue. See ever increasing demand as the blockchain(think giant ledger) grows.

 

The underlying tech is becoming more mainstream though. Ripple is gaining ground among banks. Thought I had even read about ECB looking into coming out with their own version. Should be an interesting future.

[fresh]

It reminds me of tulip fever which lasted much shorter compared to Bitcoin.

In addition, Bitcoin has already been banned in some countries.

(IMHO, why OP looks like an Advert to me ? )

Edited January 18, 2017 by fresh

[Genecks]

I'm feeling beat up.

 

No, not an advert. Also, "why" as a question comes off somewhat as schizoaffective. So, I could argue because you're schizoaffective, which you might feel bitter about. AKA determinism vs. block universe.

 

I'm interested in it due my interpretation of its capabilities: Fermi paradox, computer simulation hypothesis, mathematical universe hypothesis, and whatever else.

For the Fermi paradox, assuming the SHA-2 protocol is doing a lot of courting (aka auditing), then it's like a whirlpool effect is being created. It's like it's making a "reverse" dark matter energy(?) situation, thus pulling things toward Earth: Like a whirlpool effect.

The energy of the universe is dominated by empty space emitting a repulsive form of gravity that is pushing the universe apart.

 

 

source: https://www.nasa.gov/missions/deepspace/f_dark-energy.html

 

Theft argues free will. Are you arguing free will, Endy0816?

You equivocate then to talking about "...how we naturally tend to misplace money."

 

What comes to mind is the following:

1. "I didn't steal it. I borrowed it."

2. "I didn't steal it. I misappropriated it."

 

etc...

You have said X (shorting) is not Y (theft). Ok... But you've not operationally defined your Y-variable. You, endy, use the word "naturally." However, I think it was consider science relative to its former "natural science," then we're talking about the school of determinism rather than free will.

By "natural science," I'm referring to naturalism (if I recall my associative learnings about the word "natural" and "nature"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)

 

Even from the school of determinism, you can't really have theft. Yes, this becomes a philosophy of law issue. No, I'm not discussing this on philosophyforums.com. I'm talking about this here on scienceforums.net. I'm also somewhat unappreciative of how Paul's (admin of philosophyforums.com if still the admin) website got hacked/attacked from a sleeper thingy.

- sleeper (Wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_agent

Edited January 19, 2017 by Genecks

[Strange]

For the Fermi paradox, assuming the SHA-2 protocol is doing a lot of courting (aka auditing), then it's like a whirlpool effect is being created. It's like it's making a "reverse" dark matter energy(?) situation, thus pulling things toward Earth:

 

 

 

That is quite an impressive collection of non sequiturs in just two sentences.

What does the Fermi paradox have to do with Bitcoin?

What does SHA-2 calculation have to do with courting? Or even auditing?

What is the connection between courting and auditing?

What does courting (or auditing) have to do with whirlpools?

What do whirlpools have to do with "reverse dark energy"?

What is "reverse dark energy"?

What does "reverse dark energy" have to do with the Fermi paradox?

And so on.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Strange

[Genecks]

Ok, I'm looking at what appear to be the affects effects of Bitcoin.

 

Now, there is the whole ~21 million Bitcoin possible to produce. But that's not just relative to Earth's money. That's kind of like it's auditing the entire universe, as if there can only be ~21 million Bitcoins in the universe. If there are aliens out there, they're more than likely going to feel the economic pressure of Bitcoin and come to Earth to check out what's going on (unless they're already hear here looking into things).

 

* aside: It kind of has a "feel" to it that reminds me of when Q brought the Borg to Captain Picard (I never saw the full episode with such, but, yeah, kind of the idea).

 

By auditing, I mean the SHA-2 protocol is looking over transactions. One of the things that Satoshi doesn't seem to talk about is how the SHA-2 protcol is mediating the financial dispute between things. It's adjudicating the financial transaction. It's fighting/courting/auditing for the transaction to occur.

It's doing a lot of analysis. I'm tired. We can keep arguing about it, but I'll have to come back over a longer period of time to discuss the issue. The SHA-2 protocol is the third party (kind of like the federal reserve). Satoshi, in the paper, writes (has described) about a third-party issue but doesn't seem to mention SHA-2 as then being interpreted as a third party.

 

I saw soon enough that you appeared to be using the Socratic method.

By whirlpool, I mean vacuum. Again, look at the Fermi paradox issue I have mentioned in this post. It's like it's collapsing the universe toward Earth from an interpretation I have.

 

Reverse dark energy is simply a term I was using as an expression of an idea.

 

I think I've answered your question intelligibly enough unless we want to get into Agrippa's trilemma and and/or the Münchhausen trilemma.

 

 

And so on.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Genecks

[Endy0816]

Please stop with the crazy.

 

Theft would be taking over your computer or device to turn it into a mining rig without your knowledge or consent. Though if you are cool with making me money at your expense, feel free to send a PM.

 

To put 21 million into perspective, consider that there are Trillions of dollars in circulation. Part of the obvious problem is that there simply are not enough for widespread adoption. You either have to go down the decimal rabbit hole(which I think has its own limit) or get with the other stakeholders to change the limit. Of course that starts down the road to a governing body controlling the monetary supply...

 

We're only 5 million bitcoins away from the limit. I'm honestly curious what happens when mining no longer gives a payout. Possibly transaction fees can make up the difference, but I really don't know.

 

 

[fresh]

@No, not an advert. Also, "why" as a question comes off somewhat as schizoaffective. So, I could argue because you're schizoaffective, which you might feel bitter about. AKA determinism vs. block universe.

 

what does schizoaffective to do with my reply？

what is your logic ？

how much did you earn from Bitcoin？

you'd better come back with your fortune to back up your theory.

[Genecks]

I'd suggest not street fighting. I think Bitcoin works toward mediation. I think entropy works toward mediation. If somehow fighting comes out of bitcoin, that seems just like the natural flow of events, entropy. Sure, fighting might seem like the quick, right fast idea. But if people can just be calm and talk through issues, then great.

 

* Also, I'm not Washu Hakubi if that's been an issue. Maybe indirectly, but I don't call myself Washu Hakubi everyday, as far as I'm aware.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Genecks

[Genecks]

I've been having difficulty accessing a computer for long periods of time. So, I think what I meant about Jeremiah Johnson was that one might want to focus on survival skills, camping, preparedness, food readiness, etc..The movie was decent, but him helping the people in the civil war lead to some death, which was unfortunate. Basically, I was suggesting getting better at camping and survivalism. Otherwise, I think if aliens came here, just being mediative shouldn't cause much of an issue. Hopefully, they wouldn't shoot first.

 

But about Bitcoin, it seems to keep moving forward. There are hotspots if you look at coinmap that don't seem to care about Bitcoin. I think that shows those kinds of people are using a fair amount of reptilian-complex thinking. Otherwise, where there is a fair amount of Bitcoin being spread, there is communistic thinking, sharing, etc.. I was in Chicago from 2009 to 2011, and again in 2012, and I didn't see shooting. I was at a place some time ago and someone said Chicago was having street violence, but it has tended to. I think my county has been locking me here. I'm not suggesting anyone rebuild Roguesci.org anytime soon, though.

 

So, I think Bitcoin is what the legal system hoped it could be. For what I've read, the legal system came about due to alleged inefficiencies in marketplace economics. However, with Bitcoin, it surely appears to short the legal system and help expand the idea that "things just happen" rather than making a legal argument about culpability.

 

By reptilian thinking, I mean they are highly adversarial rather consciously focusing on mediation. With the Federal Reserve, it's said "In God We Trust," which is an argument that the Federal Reserve makes. So, it seems that God is replacing the Federal Reserve with Bitcoin. Thus, the Federal Reserve has been negligent.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Genecks

[Strange]

Tidally incoherent.

[Genecks]

Hello, fate sister. I am God. I am owed at least one million United States dollars. I declare war on planet Earth until I have such. I also expect interest on it. You are the fool. I do not forgive. Abolition of negligence does not allow such. Aka, bite the curb.

[fresh]

Hello, fate sister. I am God. I am owed at least one million United States dollars. I declare war on planet Earth until I have such. I also expect interest on it. You are the fool. I do not forgive. Abolition of negligence does not allow such. Aka, bite the curb.

no idea what are you talking about.

[Phi for All]

!

Moderator Note

It seems all the rational parts of this topic have been exhausted. Time for sleep.