budullewraagh Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 for my bio final project, i'm testing the effects of certain drugs on receptors in daphnia. i want to see what various alterations to these drugs do to the daphnia, although i have to be careful with what i do, as some things are legal and others are not. take for example ephedrine, which i want to test. if i were to reduce it, i would be working with crystal meth, which is illegal and wont fly with my teacher. im allowed to use otc drugs and natural plants, such as morning glory seeds (for small amounts of lsa) so long as i dont perform extractions on the plants. this also raises the question of the cyanogenic glycosides, as the aglycone component hydrolyzes to form hydrocyanic acid and benzaldehyde, the former of which would kill the daphnia. so that reminds me, i need to figure out how to remove the HCN without extracting the lsa. anyway, i want to make derivitives of various drugs, like ephedrine, among others, that are legal, so i can test the effects. so far, my list consists of: -ephedrine -pseudoephedrine -lsa -nitrous oxide -diethyl ether -caffeine can anyone suggest legal derivatives i could make? as well, does anyone have suggestions for other legal otc drugs i could use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latentheat Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Could you try converting dextromethorphan to dextrorphan? I'm pretty sure that's a perfectly legal experiment to conduct, and dxm is readily avaliable OTC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raivo Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 What you want to do is not completely safe and if some very special idiot will know of you, you may get into (hopefully minor) trouble. You do not need to do anything illegal to get special attention of authorities. They have right to investigate. If you are not ready for this, then better do not do any reactions with nearly illegal drugs. Only test them as you bought them from legal supply not doing any conversions yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 "What you want to do is not completely safe and if some very special idiot will know of you, you may get into (hopefully minor) trouble. You do not need to do anything illegal to get special attention of authorities. They have right to investigate. If you are not ready for this, then better do not do any reactions with nearly illegal drugs. Only test them as you bought them from legal supply not doing any conversions yourself." while i appreciate your concern, i am well aware of the potential dangers of lab work, but it's not like i'll be doing birch reductions on pseudoephedrine. i have much experience working with "dangerous" chemicals and have been exposed to my share of acrid gases, oxidative phosphorylase inhibitors, etc and yes, i have burned myself on multiple occasions. for my purchases i wouldnt be entirely surprised if the feds had files on me. im not a bee, that i promise you. in fact, ive never made explosives, unless you call isolation of a few oxidizers explosive manufacture. ive never made bombs, drugs, etc and i have only used some acrid gases in reactions. i know the feds have the right to investigate, but it isnt a problem. all my alterations i'll discuss with my teacher beforehand, and i wont be breaking any laws. so while i thank you for your input, my question remains; what derivatives can i make legally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 With the newfangled 'Patriot Act' and the horrendous way that the DEA is set up here in the USA, it's basically illegal to manufacture any type of drug out there. If the DEA wants to arrest you, they'll just say that you were trying to make a new amphetamine derivative and they'd then have the right to legally prosecute you. I know it's really dumb and stupid, but hey, that's the good ol' USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 and if i were not working with amphetamines, what then? again, im not making mdma or meth. there still are lysergides to experiment with, as well as other stimulants. i still have the problem of what derivatives i could produce, but again i ask for suggestions of other drugs i could test, as well as a means for removing the hydrocyanic acid from morning glory seeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 With ephedrine and ephedrine based compounds, it's VERY difficult to do any type of alterations to it without it being somehow related to amphetamines. The US Government and the DEA cracks down really hard on any synthesis experiments involving ephedrine since it is such a close homologue to amphetamine. With the laws that have gone into effect over the past ten years or so relating to the synthesis of 'new designer drugs', it's difficult to do much of anything with ephedrine without teetering on a very 'iffy' line of legality. (Especially since if the DEA wants to say that something's illegal they really don't need any evidence or proof). For the hydrogen cyanide problem, I know that copper (I) cyanide is not soluble in water, but if there is enough sodium ions present it does become soluble. If you could somehow liberate the HCN into a weakly basic solution that does not contain sodium ions, perhaps you could then use a simple copper nitrate or copper chloride salt to bind any free cyanide? For drug derivatives, have you thought about using derivatives of acetaminophen, ibuprofen, loperamide, etc? While I know that most of these aren't stimulants, they are common OTC drugs and generally aren't associated with 'illegal' synthesis. While I know you have no intentions on making illegal substances, it's always best to err on the side of caution when dealing with this type of stuff. Besides, it's probably not a good idea to make a controlled substance and then admit it in a paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Just a couple suggestions. for my bio final project, i'm testing the effects of certain drugs on receptors in daphnia. i want to see what various alterations to these drugs do to the daphnia, although i have to be careful with what i do, as some things are legal and others are not. I think it would help if you clearly defined what your looking for. What types of "effects" are you going to look at? Are you looking at overall behavioral effects? Effects on receptor second messengers? Receptor down regulation? etc. etc. anyway' date=' i want to make derivitives of various drugs, like ephedrine, among others, that are legal, so i can test the effects. so far, my list consists of: -ephedrine -pseudoephedrine -lsa -nitrous oxide -diethyl ether -caffeine can anyone suggest legal derivatives i could make? as well, does anyone have suggestions for other legal otc drugs i could use?[/quote'] Again, take a second to define what you want to accomplish. Essentially, you have a list of drugs which are in completely different classes (mechanistically speaking). All these drugs produce very different effects. As it stands, it seems you'll be comparing "apples to oranges". I would suggest looking at a single "class" of drug. Lastly, although I'm not a lawyer be careful. There is some sort of "analog drug act" which has deemed certain derivatives of certain chemicals illegal......some of which haven't even been created yet! A couple legal herbs with interesting effects might include: Salvia Divinorum, Kratom, and Amanita muscaria mushrooms. All of which are legal to obtain and can be ordered online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackout Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Is chloroform illegal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raivo Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 To: Bud I am sure you do not intend to break laws or do anything bad but do not expect everyone will belive just your words. Todays world is very paranoid about drugs. Geting unfriendly attention by parents, neighbours or police IS serious labwork danger! For your original question: use what you can buy from pharmacies and do not modify it or if you want to extract or alter something be sure you are far enough from illegal stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuhrerkeebs Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 What about the eugenol from cloves? Or getting the opiates from poppy seeds or lettuce? I've also heard that eating alot of nutmeg is like smoking pot (although I've never tried it, nor would I know whether it gives you the same high feeling, as I've not yet tried weed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silencer Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 ^Extracting and concentrating those compounds would be illegal. bud, this site has lots of info. http://www.erowid.org Go to plants & drugs. Also, what about OTC codiene? As I understand it is more soluble than the tylenol and filler that it comes with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Well, in the USA there is no such thing as OTC codeine as all opium based compounds are considered controlled substances. In our neighbors to the north (Canada), however, codeine is sold OTC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuhrerkeebs Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Extracting and concentrating those compounds would be illegal. I doubt the eugenol is illegal, because in 48 of the 50 states you can legally buy clove cigarettes with that stuff in it, and I can go down to my grocery store right now and buy clove oil, which is pretty much the same stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacknife360 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 I'd try nicotine if I were you, dead easy to get hold of, ie. you can extract it from tobacco. Ethanol would be interesting as alot more is known about how other drugs work (eg. THC, LSD, DMT) than how ethanol intoxicates. Maybe you could cast some light on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Actually, a great deal is known about how and why ethanol produces intoxication. Just do some quick medical journal research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akcapr Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 also, ethanol seems like it would either kill the daphnia or do nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuhrerkeebs Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Why don't you try and use some datura? I had a friend who took it one time and he just sat around for hours talking to people who weren't there. However, I believe it's very poisonous, so you might want to be careful what you do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 that would be due to the atropine, hyoscyamine, and scopolamine naturally found in datura, as well as atropa belladonna (nightshade), among others. these alkaloids competitively inhibit acetylcholine, hitting the muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. being as powerful as they are, they just may kill the daphnia. i actually have some extract of atropa belladonna that i use for medicinal purposes, so i may try to use that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silencer Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 I wasn't talking about cloves, I was talking about the poppies. jdurg, I thought that you could get tylenol with codiene OTC? Also, what abou salvia divinorum extract? You can buy it online in 5x and 10x concentrations. That would be a useful one since salvia is gaining popularity as a "legal high." But from what I've heard, the trip usually isn't pleasurable at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Nope. You cannot get codeine OTC here in the United States. It is illegal to obtain an opium based drug in the USA without a prescription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 well, the salvinorin-a in salvia divinorum actually does affect opoid receptors (which is surprising for a hallucinogen), and it's legal, so go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drizzt Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 lol if you want belladonna come down to where i live that crap grows all over the place. there also is mescallin(peyote) down here but dont ask me where i dont have the time nor do i want to go looking for that stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 i actually have enough atropa belladonna atm. on the other hand, is 3,4,5-methoxyphenethylamine legal in the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecoli Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 how about epinephrine, or adrenaline... that would be intresting to see, albeit with predictable affects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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