SEARCH ENGINES - is it, or are they ? Fundamental to most of intelligent machines , including the human being, animals, insects, viruses, cells ?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The principle of SOMETHING that ' Sifts' information so as to provide a solution; ' identifies ' a specific piece of knowledge; or 'filters out ' a possible required action. This appears to be fundamental to a lot of modern computer or I- pad technology.

 

Does this mean , ' that they are ', also essential to ' Life Itself ' ?

 

Mike

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Klaynos]

No.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

No.

.

 

Well !

 

I can not readily think of a life form , that is not looking or searching for something to inspect, eat , cuddle up to, reproduce with , study up , kill, spend meaningfull time with ?

 

And to a greater or lesser extent , does this not apply to our ' man made devices ' ?

 

Mike

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Klaynos]

Nope.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Nope.

?

Surely something like 'Google ' invokes a fairly complete set of search criteria or ' algorithms ' ( software mechanisms) to help a ' person searching the net ' to go through the possible site descriptions , in order to give its questioner some answeres around the subject sought?

 

A parallel in the animal kingdom , would surely be a dog sniffing the pavement looking for some form of interesting hints in what direction food or another dog lays? Which could prove to be of interest ?

 

Mike

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Mike, if you're going to argue for the proposition, you need to support it with evidence. Argument from incredulity is not evidence.

A less vague framing of the argument would also be helpful.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

!

Moderator Note

Mike, if you're going to argue for the proposition, you need to support it with evidence. Argument from incredulity is not evidence.

A less vague framing of the argument would also be helpful.

 

O.k. I am familiar with the idea of ' Search Engines , being present in the computer and Internet world .

 

I am asking is there any parralel in the Natural World ?

 

Could it be said that the natural world of life ,uses this principle , ( some how with some sort of ' search engine ' ) as a driver to achieve its purposes ? .

 

Mike

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Klaynos]

Nah.

[Strange]

?

Surely something like 'Google ' invokes a fairly complete set of search criteria or ' algorithms ' ( software mechanisms) to help a ' person searching the net ' to go through the possible site descriptions , in order to give its questioner some answeres around the subject sought?

 

 

So what are you saying? That Google's search engine is ... a search engine?

 

But most other hardware and software systems are not.

 

 

 

Could it be said that the natural world of life ,uses this principle , ( some how with some sort of ' search engine ' ) as a driver to achieve its purposes ? .

 

Can you show some specific examples? (And I mean specific.) For example, how exactly is plant transpiration or seed dispersal related to the functions of a search engine? (But feel free to choose your own examples.)

Edited December 22, 2016 by Strange

[swansont]

O.k. I am familiar with the idea of ' Search Engines , being present in the computer and Internet world .

 

I am asking is there any parralel in the Natural World ?

 

Could it be said that the natural world of life ,uses this principle , ( some how with some sort of ' search engine ' ) as a driver to achieve its purposes ? .

 

Mike

 

 

As I said, if you are going to challenge a negative response, you need to present evidence. Explain, for example, why you think a dog sniffing the pavement (your example) is like an internet search engine.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

As I said, if you are going to challenge a negative response, you need to present evidence. Explain, for example, why you think a dog sniffing the pavement (your example) is like an internet search engine.

Well I think it is common knowledge , that the dogs prime skill ,is in using its nose in two ways .

 

1. A dog ( all canine species ) , are renown for having an exceptional sense of smell , in tracking something down . Secondly its nose or snout is a second tool for burrowing , under , in , about a hole or gap.

 

A dog uses these skills , to search out food or instructed leads ( by an owner ) .

So having communicated the ' find ' , say by an example smell . A dog can track down , sometimes over vast distances.

 

2. A computer search engine , nowerdays is capable of ' sniffing out ' from a single set of clues , a piece of information , or a picture . This is accomplished worldwide across an immense range of information , usually offering several ' finds '

We are all used to using Google , to find quickly a required ' wish ' .this will have been by the Google search engine . ( software held somewhere on googles main frame computer .

 

Mike

[Klaynos]

Negative.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Negative.

.

 

I am not sure that I understand these ' one word ' comments ?

 

Mike

So what are you saying? That Google's search engine is ... a search engine?

 

But most other hardware and software systems are not.

 

 

 

Can you show some specific examples? (And I mean specific.) For example, how exactly is plant transpiration or seed dispersal related to the functions of a search engine? (But feel free to choose your own examples.)

No , I am not saying Google is unique . Far from it . I was suggesting , Google is an extreme example of a search engine .

Other , control electronics can be used as simple ' search engines '

 

Thus when any electronic control, can set the desire or requirement of an operator . A forward control circuit could start to enact the desired response . Feedback can supply return information. At this part of the search success or adjustment is or may be called for. When the goal or desire is reached , no further adjustment is required.

 

This simple search is complete.

 

Mike

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Well I think it is common knowledge , that the dogs prime skill ,is in using its nose in two ways .

1. A dog ( all canine species ) , are renown for having an exceptional sense of smell , in tracking something down . Secondly its nose or snout is a second tool for burrowing , under , in , about a hole or gap.

A dog uses these skills , to search out food or instructed leads ( by an owner ) .

So having communicated the ' find ' , say by an example smell . A dog can track down , sometimes over vast distances.

2. A computer search engine , nowerdays is capable of ' sniffing out ' from a single set of clues , a piece of information , or a picture . This is accomplished worldwide across an immense range of information , usually offering several ' finds '

We are all used to using Google , to find quickly a required ' wish ' .this will have been by the Google search engine . ( software held somewhere on googles main frame computer .

Mike

Just because you awkwardly use "sniff out" to describe both doesn't mean the two processes are the same, or even all that similar. All it shows is a superficial knowledge of the topics.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Just because you awkwardly use "sniff out" to describe both doesn't mean the two processes are the same, or even all that similar. All it shows is a superficial knowledge of the topics.

O.k. Well let's generalise a bit .

 

A good half of what goes on on earth , is set and prescribed in the laws of nature . A lot of what is described on this forum are the laws of science that go off as or by ' rote ' . Or often by maths formulae . This is not a search , this is more a determined operation , by these said laws of nature. rocks , earth, metal, gases etc

 

There is however , another half, here on earth . Namely , all of the animal kingdom. This could be said to include , bugs , virus , worms , larger animals , birds, fish etc ,

Including , humankind .

 

It is really this second half , that I wonder if it could be said to fit into this " search engine " status . I hear myself and other discuss or feel the initiative or desire to seek out a certain something . Animals go off looking for food , they do not appear to move about as ' automatons , do they ?

 

With them and ourselves , we seem to initiate an idea from somewhere , then we go off looking for it , do we not ? Some things are more difficult than others .

 

Is this whole process with Animalkind including humans and virus , not what we could refer to as a " search engine " ?

An initiative comes from somewhere! And we have strategies for seeking , until we find what we are looking for !

 

Is that not so .? And would it be wrong to compare it to a ' Search Engine ' ?

 

Mike

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

Well I think it is common knowledge , that the dogs prime skill ,is in using its nose in two ways .

 

1. A dog ( all canine species ) , are renown for having an exceptional sense of smell , in tracking something down . Secondly its nose or snout is a second tool for burrowing , under , in , about a hole or gap.

 

A dog uses these skills , to search out food or instructed leads ( by an owner ) .

So having communicated the ' find ' , say by an example smell . A dog can track down , sometimes over vast distances.

 

2. A computer search engine , nowerdays is capable of ' sniffing out ' from a single set of clues , a piece of information , or a picture . This is accomplished worldwide across an immense range of information , usually offering several ' finds '

We are all used to using Google , to find quickly a required ' wish ' .this will have been by the Google search engine . ( software held somewhere on googles main frame computer .

 

Mike

 

 

So, two totally unrelated examples of searching for different types of things using different methods. The point being ... what exactly?

[swansont]

If you are claiming the animal kingdom doesn't follow the laws of nature, then I think a different, more fundamental discussion is in order.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

So, two totally unrelated examples of searching for different types of things using different methods. The point being ... what exactly?

.

....that particles , matter, planets, Suns, galaxies, etc follow the fundamental laws of nature that we often discuss here on this forum . Give or take the odd ' spat ' , here and there.

 

But there is no particular search , as far as I can see . It goes off predictably like clock work .

 

The second group ( animals , living things , including humans ) work in a different way ? At least I think they do ?

They initiate desires , true prompted by random things ? But they are not all moving about like zombies, or atoms .

 

 

Certainly we as humans , we behave differently , surely ... See following answer to Swansont

 

If you are claiming the animal kingdom doesn't follow the laws of nature, then I think a different, more fundamental discussion is in order.

.

 

I am not saying that animals do not follow the laws of nature , of course they do , but they appear more impromptus . They are not moving around like robots . The lamb get wind up their rostrils , and a group descide ( mini search engine mode ) to frolic around the field .

 

And when it comes to humans surely , we sit back in a rocking chair and think " now what shall I do today ? I think I will go walk the dog and look for some good views to paint ! Now where shall I go , where can the dog run at the same time as I see amazing views . "

( major sojourn into ' search engine, mode ' ) .

 

Mike

[swansont]

There is no search because that's not an apt description of physics. But you haven't made the case that it's apt for biology, either. You need more than assertion and incredulity.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

There is no search because that's not an apt description of physics. But you haven't made the case that it's apt for biology, either. You need more than assertion and incredulity.

I never for a moment thought that " search " was neither a physics word or a biology word .

 

I have heard the word used in computer language , because that's where I borrowed it from .

" search engine " .

I will take 5 and google it ?

 

""..."........".............

 

Yes it's there Wikipedia describes it as the tool used by the World Wide Web

Ref :-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_search_engine

 

Surely you are not suggesting the World Wide Web is not physics or biology ? Or are you saying it's not centre stage word use in pure physics and biology .

 

Either way , I do not think I am promoting wrong ideas by using the principle of " a search engine " as not meaningful in this particular issue .

 

I was asking , whether science felt that animals , creatures both small and large , including mankind , might use the principle of being a sort of " Search Engine " to improve their lot in existence

on a minute by minute , day by day , year by year , basis .

 

It seems to work for the World Wide Web , so maybe it works well for us ?

 

Mike

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

The web is computer science. It is neither physics nor biology.

Either way , I do not think I am promoting wrong ideas by using the principle of " a search engine " as not meaningful in this particular issue .

I was asking , whether science felt that animals , creatures both small and large , including mankind , might use the principle of being a sort of " Search Engine " to improve their lot in existence

on a minute by minute , day by day , year by year , basis .

It seems to work for the World Wide Web , so maybe it works well for us ?

Mike

And the answer you got was no, but you've persisted. Which suggests you want the answer to be yes, but you can't bring any substantive evidence to the discussion. That's not science. Or philosophy.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The web is computer science. It is neither physics nor biology.

 

And the answer you got was no, but you've persisted. Which suggests you want the answer to be yes, but you can't bring any substantive evidence to the discussion. That's not science. Or philosophy.

.

Well I do understand now what you are saying . But I find it rather odd that this type of behaviour can not cross the the discipline boundary . Namely " searching " . Surely the principle of searching crosses ALL boundaries. You can search for an improvement ,if you are doing science, biology , woodwork, music , whatever discipline you care to mention surely . Or have I come off the rails of free will somewhere?

 

I have noticed that there is a type of behaviour going on in animal and human kind , that is not dissimilar to what appears to go on in software systems like the World Wide Web . And am asking if this has any value in our understanding the philosophy and science of of living ' THINGS' ? .

 

Both science and philosophy have improved over the years by :-

 

( a) searching for improved ways of looking at things ( philosophy) and

(b) searching for improved ways of doing things ( science . )

 

And history shows that both these disciplines have improved over the years by undertaking this

( search and find , adjust , and improve sequence ) .

If you want examples of that , I am sure I can drum some up , as they have been my observed reason for asking the question .

 

In fact , I would dare to suggest , that this gentle searching and flexibility for change is what distinguishes

 

" animate " from " inanimate matter " although , I would have to acknowledge human kind seem more amenable to change , than animals !

 

Mike

Edited December 23, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Klaynos]

Search engines if they were to replicate how a biological system searchers (they didn't last time I read about them but machine learning and neural networks are probably as close as you can get) it would be because a human has looked at nature and tried to replicate this. Not some underlying mystery.

 

I'm sticking with "no".

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Search engines if they were to replicate how a biological system searchers (they didn't last time I read about them but machine learning and neural networks are probably as close as you can get) it would be because a human has looked at nature and tried to replicate this. Not some underlying mystery.

I'm sticking with "no".

.

 

I am not sure that I am suggesting , anyone or any system is copying another. For all I know both computer systems and biological systems have come to their own conclusions .

 

I am remarking , there is a similar approach at work here :

 

Namely :- both life and computer systems generate a void. Namely we have , or feel something is missing. We do not know what, where, which, how , a certain something is. We require some means of acquiring our ' missing thing ' . So I suppose I am noticing both the World Wide Web and the realm of LIFE have both acquired a similar method of finding our missing ' thing.' Have they not ?

 

A method of searching for our missing requirement ----- for want of a better word ( search engine ) . Is this not so ?

 

Mike

[Sensei]

Replying to SEARCH ENGINES - is it, or are they ? Fundamental to most of intelligent machines , including the human being, animals, insects, viruses, cells ?

No. I have made several such bots searching the net.

They can go through IP range, entered by human.

They can go to some website, download it, then parse file to search for links to other websites.

Then queue them in database.

And then pick up them to repeat process.

They can go to some website which has well known suffix id in query.

f.e. http://www.some.com/index.php?id=xxxx

where xxxx algorithm replaces by numbers (from range user enter) or ids.

Downloaded pages are processed, the way you like and need.

Typically they are parsed to search for other links.

Typically they are parsed to see what words, and keywords they contain.

There is database of words, each word, has list of websites mentioning that word.

Algorithm gives website rank. The more other websites link some website (that contain word), the higher rank.

 

Imagine going to public library,

you pick up book from shelf randomly.

There are words that you don't know, they mention other books that you don't know.

So again you search library for that book or what does mean particular word.

Now imagine you have index of words, index of books, and the first one in a list of books talking about some word, is the one book which is mentioned the largest number of times (or by valuable well known author).

There is no the real intelligence in this process. Any tiny bit.

 

 

Well I think it is common knowledge , that the dogs prime skill ,is in using its nose in two ways .

 

1. A dog ( all canine species ) , are renown for having an exceptional sense of smell , in tracking something down . Secondly its nose or snout is a second tool for burrowing , under , in , about a hole or gap.

 

A dog uses these skills , to search out food or instructed leads ( by an owner ) .

So having communicated the ' find ' , say by an example smell . A dog can track down , sometimes over vast distances.

 

2. A computer search engine , nowerdays is capable of ' sniffing out ' from a single set of clues , a piece of information , or a picture . This is accomplished worldwide across an immense range of information , usually offering several ' finds '

We are all used to using Google , to find quickly a required ' wish ' .this will have been by the Google search engine . ( software held somewhere on googles main frame computer .

Search engine, has database of words already present while user is entering keyword in it.

Because searching bots visited the all websites, and catalogued everything, made duplicate of the entire Internet in their databases.

Website that has not been previously catalogued, won't be found. It takes days, months, or years, for website to be found by users.

 

Dog is just reacting for random event.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Sensei