Top water slow; bottom water clogged

[Mordred]

http://structuretech1.com/a-primer-on-s-traps/

 

This site mentions Minnesota. I don't know the regulations in the States though. I glanced through the Canadian plumbing code and didn't see a specific regulation against though my copy is out of date lol.

 

I could ask my oldest son though as he's a journeyman

Edited January 19, 2017 by Mordred

[HB of CJ]

I did not read all the helpful answers. A couple of quick questions. On the West Coast we have vent pipes that usually extend up through the roof. They are called soil stacks. Sometimes other names. Do you occasionally get foul smelling bubbles coming up through the drain when you release a bowl full or water? Or does the water just drain out slowly no matter how many times you clean out the assessable pipes?

 

You might have a clogged up or restricted soil stack. Having trees over the roof will do this over time with leaf debris. Also sometimes wasps will take up residence in the pipes and clog up things. Sometimes other insects will attempt to make such pipes their home. If you can, try running a plumbing snake down through the soil stacks. This will have to be done from the roof. Sometimes this fixes things. Hope this helps.

 

"No matter how complicated they make the plumbing ... the easier it becomes to stop up the pipes!" (Scotty to Bones ... stealing the NCC 1701 Enterprise)

[Acme]

In what jurisdiction are they illegal? Because they're not where I live.

State of Minnesota for example.

Illegal Plumbing Products in Minnesota

[Bender]

How is private plumbing any business of Minnesota? Does anyone know why they would regulate something like that?

 

I have several bottle traps, which I installed myself. I had to replace a bottle trap installed by the previous owner, but the main reason was that the pipe leaving the trap went uphill, trapping water (and dirt) in that pipe.

The bath tub and shower came with their own variations of bottle traps (installed by a plumber). I like that, because that way the hair gets stuck in the trap rather than somewhere down the pipe, as my bottle traps are all very easy to clean without having to disassemble any pipes. In modern showers there is simply no room for a P-trap.

 

Btw, I don't live in Minnesota.

 

I understand the need to regulate the electric circuit, because of the health risk, and the fresh water circuit, to prevent contamination. I even understand the need to regulate outdoor draining pipes for environmental purposes or to be able to connect to the sewer. But if home owners choose to mess up their indoor drainage, who cares?

[Strange]

How is private plumbing any business of Minnesota? Does anyone know why they would regulate something like that?

 

 

Building regulations. Almost everywhere has them.

[Endy0816]

Methane can come up if the trap fails. Not restricted everywhere though.

[Bender]

Methane can come up if the trap fails. Not restricted everywhere though.

If the trap fails, the stench is unbearable. I don't see why an S-trap or a bottle trap would fail sooner than a P-trap.

 

But, like I said, I understand the regulations for the systems I mentioned. Last year I renovated all my outdoor water drainage, according to regulation, but I cannot find a single rule for indoor systems. There are rules for not causing discomfort for your neighbours, including stench, and I think that should suffice.

[studiot]

Thank you again Acme, now that the tone of the discussion has definitely taken a turn for the better.

 

I was not aware of such rules about traps in your part of the world.

 

The UK does not actually specify the physical details of the trap only the depths of the water seal for different purposes.

 

If you think about it, both P and bottle traps must eventually become elongated S traps unless the connection is to a larger diameter pipe.

 

We usually consider a P trap for a horizontal outlet and an S trap for one that goes down.

Sometimes the geometry of the construction constrains what connections are possible.

 

Isn't it strange how a particular physical arrangement that works well in one part of the world (and may even be mandatory) can be illegal in another.

 

I have always thought it ironic that in the UK it is illegal to earth (ground) the consumer neutral, but in the US it is illegal not to.

Edited January 19, 2017 by studiot

[Bender]

 

I have always thought it ironic that in the UK it is illegal to earth (ground) the consumer neutral, but in the US it is illegal not to.

I discovered this in the Dutch translation of a physics handbook (Giancoli), which is translated, but not adapted to the difference in grid.

[Endy0816]

If the trap fails, the stench is unbearable. I don't see why an S-trap or a bottle trap would fail sooner than a P-trap.

 

But, like I said, I understand the regulations for the systems I mentioned. Last year I renovated all my outdoor water drainage, according to regulation, but I cannot find a single rule for indoor systems. There are rules for not causing discomfort for your neighbours, including stench, and I think that should suffice.

 

The idea seems to be that you could physically tell with the P-Trap. I think it is more about the safety aspect than odor.

 

I don't know, regulations are pretty random across the country and world.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Endy0816

[StringJunky]

 

The idea seems to be that you could physically tell with the P-Trap. I think it is more about the safety aspect than odor.

 

I don't know, regulations are pretty random across the country and world.

Probably, the differences are due to different priorities and conditions.

[Acme]

How is private plumbing any business of Minnesota? Does anyone know why they would regulate something like that?

...

Sewer gas can be hazardous. Sewer gas

...Health effects

In most homes, sewer gas may have a slightly unpleasant odor, but does not often pose a significant health hazard.[6] Residential sewer pipes primarily contain the gases found in air (nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, etc.).[7] Often, methane is the gas of next highest concentration, but typically remains at nontoxic levels, especially in properly vented systems. However, if sewer gas has a distinct rotten egg smell, especially in sewage mains, septic tanks, or other sewage treatment facilities, it may be due to hydrogen sulfide content, which can be detected by human olfactory senses in concentrations as low as parts per billion. Exposure to low levels of this chemical can irritate the eyes, cause a cough or sore throat, shortness of breath, and fluid accumulation in the lungs. Prolonged low-level exposure may cause fatigue, pneumonia, loss of appetite, headaches, irritability, poor memory, and dizziness. High concentrations of hydrogen sulfide (>150 ppm) can produce olfactory fatigue, whereby the scent becomes undetectable. At higher concentrations (>300 ppm), hydrogen sulfide can cause loss of consciousness and death. Very high concentrations (>1000 ppm) can result in immediate collapse, occurring after a single breath.

Explosion risk

If mixed with air, sewer gas may explode. ...

I suspect, but have no evidence, that insurance companies may be responsible for promoting bans on bottle traps. The key complaint from my reading is that bottle traps are not self-scouring and so more prone to failure than P-traps which are self-scouring. Whether the risk is health or property damage related, less risk is better risk from an insurer's point of view.

Thank you again Acme, now that the tone of the discussion has definitely taken a turn for the better.

...

My pleasure.

[RiceAWay]

In what jurisdiction are they illegal? Because they're not where I live.

 

California requires properly installed P traps in all new construction and only allow S traps in old pre-standard days.

[studiot]

 

Although bottle traps are better if you keep them cleaned out (and no one ever does outside of a laboratory) I have never seen one of these in a residence since they are illegal in most areas in residences. Even S traps have been illegal for quite some time and they only allow original installations to remain. P traps are supposed to be the standard.

 

RiceAWay I owe you an apology.

I didn't respond to your post#24 because I found the claim hard to believe but it has now been independently verified so I, for one, have learned something.

Thank you.

[Manticore]

Probably not entirely relevant, but many years ago I worked for a couple of years for a drain clearing company. I left to do a degree in Astrophysics. One of my assistants had a Masters in Entomology.

(It is not always wise to make assumptions about a persons level of education based on the job they have.)

[arc]

Probably not entirely relevant, but many years ago I worked for a couple of years for a drain clearing company. I left to do a degree in Astrophysics. One of my assistants had a Masters in Entomology.

(It is not always wise to make assumptions about a persons level of education based on the job they have.)

 

Not wanting to derail the thread any further, please move or delete if needed.

Several years ago we had a nice gal come in to check out our particular occupation (electrical with additional sub categories of expertise) as a possible career choice. They had her spend the day with one of our apprentices (Eddie) who was about to graduate, or turnout as we call it. When they came back at the end of the day Eddie mentioned that she had a degree in biology. Of course I was delighted that she could end up working with us.

 

We talked a little about her degree and how difficult it was to find work in that field around here, she was married with children and looking at several of the state supervised apprenticeships as a possible career choice. I told her it would be great if she came to work with us, and due to her background, how much I would welcome the possible conversational subject matter.

 

Alas, she never came back. It would have been really great if she had. I'm not much into the typical "sports" conversations that the other guys carry on so much about here. So it would have been a welcome change.

 

A REEEEALY welcomed change!

Edited March 6, 2017 by arc