Something about love waves and the heart

[Mokele]

Does the blood pump in question have chemical receptors? If so, that might go a long way in connecting physical knowledge with what people experience.

 

So do your kidneys. So does your liver. So does your bladder. The simple presence of receptors to hormones or even autonomic neurotransmitters does not mean that part of the body is liked to any sort of emotion.

 

By your logic, you can also feel love through your bladder, since it has about as many receptors are the heart, and is, in fact, more responsive to them (as anyone who's ever drunk more than 3 cups of coffee within a few hours can tell you).

 

The heart is a muscule pump that responds to hormones and *autonomic* nervous system stimulation. It generates some feedback, but generally what we feel (scared, for instance) affects the heart, not the other way around. Exceptions are, for instance, when massive blood loss causes hypovolemic shock.

 

There are more receptors in the brain, but the heart still has some and sure enough you feel things located in your heart sometimes...

 

I feel thinks in my skin too, like when I get goosebumps. It's the same thing: an *effect* of processes in the brain, not a cause.

 

What is meta claiming beyond this exactly?

 

I don't even think metatron knows what he's posting half the time.

 

Mokele

[metatron]

Chemical responses emerge up from a layered hierarchal domain of genome, cell, organs.

 

What I am postulating is there exist a non-chemical link in this biofeedback system.

 

One made of sine waves emanating from the heart. The cognitive system compress information via the Neural-net into signal, this signal induces subtle changes in the tension of the heart muscle. These subtle changes cause the heart to create a particular set wave patterns that resonate this hierarchal structure resulting in a cascade of biochemical responses.

 

As for artificial hearts, I do not know enough to comment on what kind of changes take place in recipients. I’ m have trouble finding how long patients live and what complications they have. I do know it is a temporary device. Intended for transplant recipients.

[Mokele]

What I am postulating is there exist a non-chemical link in this biofeedback system.

 

And that is why it is psuedoscience. Whether or not this spiritual, non-physical link is present or not is irrelevant: it's unobservable, and therfore it's *religion*, not science.

 

Mokele

[metatron]

And that is why it is psuedoscience. Whether or not this spiritual' date=' non-physical link is present or not is irrelevant: it's unobservable, and therfore it's *religion*, not science.

 

Mokele[/quote']

 

Following your reasoning anything dealing in waves is pseudoscience. Light, radio, sound, em fields,

 

Life is a wave function first, chemistry secondly. just like the entire universe.

[Mokele]

Fine, then show me these waves. Show me documented, peer-reviewed proof of these *particular* waves (not waves in general) exist.

 

Life is a wave function first, chemistry secondly. just like the entire universe.

 

Bullshit. Molecular biology more than adequately explains life, without needing to deal with the quantum crap.

 

Mokele

[kriminal99]

So do your kidneys. So does your liver. So does your bladder. The simple presence of receptors to hormones or even autonomic neurotransmitters does not mean that part of the body is liked to any sort of emotion.

 

By your logic' date=' you can also feel love through your bladder, since it has about as many receptors are the heart, and is, in fact, more responsive to them (as anyone who's ever drunk more than 3 cups of coffee within a few hours can tell you).

 

The heart is a muscule pump that responds to hormones and *autonomic* nervous system stimulation. It generates some feedback, but generally what we feel (scared, for instance) affects the heart, not the other way around. Exceptions are, for instance, when massive blood loss causes hypovolemic shock.

 

I feel thinks in my skin too, like when I get goosebumps. It's the same thing: an *effect* of processes in the brain, not a cause.

 

I don't even think metatron knows what he's posting half the time.

 

Mokele[/quote']

 

The way meta talks about this is not the way I would, and he might claim something about the physical realization of his first person experience based on his way of looking at it that is not necessitated by the information we have in such experience (and then it could be possible that it contradicts something science has observed)

 

But when someone claims something about first person experience, they do not have to be making any claim whatsoever about the physical realization of their first person experience. Anotherwords if I say that I feel something in my arm, he means he damn well feels something in his arm. Even though you if you were to hack off his arm and he still would feel something in the arm he doesn't have for a while, hes still "feeling something in his arm" when he touches a wall or something. He is merely pointing to his first person experience. The fact that the "feeling in his arm" is correlated to a process in the brain is irrelevant.

 

Scientists often have this problem. Once I read an argument about whether lightining was caused by traveling electrons, or instead simply WAS the traveling electrons. The answer is that lightining is CAUSED BY traveling electrons because lightining is defined by the flash of light and accompaying noise by the general populace. The scientist selfishly wants to redefine it as a moving electron because his life revolves around such investigations. But more than this redefining ideas such as lighting like this is silly when you consider that all of our ideas are functions of sense experience.

 

Anotherwords you learn about electrons THROUGH your senses in a classroom. So why would you define lightining as the classroom sense experience that you don't see when you look at the actual phenomenon?

[buzsaw]

Not much has been said here relative to the brain. It being the organ of thought and emotions, et al, it would seem that it would be the soulish organ of the body. The heart simply supplies the brain with the wherewithall to do functions. The word heart often refers to the inner being or maybe the soulish aspects of the mind/brain.

[Dak]

so, metetron, i have a few questions.

 

1/what are these love-waves waves of? eletromagnetism? gravity? or some kind of novel thus-far undescribed forse?

 

2/what do they do?

 

3/what effect does the soul have on the body?

[metatron]

so' date=' metetron, i have a few questions.

 

1/what are these love-waves waves of? eletromagnetism? gravity? or some kind of novel thus-far undescribed forse?

 

2/what do they do?

3/what effect does the soul have on the body?

[/quote']

 

The body generates an electromagnetic field like a bar magnate, but also simple waves of vibratory energy that resonant the extra cellular matrix like cords or strings.

 

As for the love wave, I don’t really know what makes it so intense, I know on an intuitive level it has to do with resonance. Or what has been referred to as coherence. The ability for these waves to embed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Life, I am beginning to realize is a supreme multi-tasker.

 

It appears as we go about our lives, data is being compressed by what has been normally only thought of as single purpose functions.

 

The heart as it is pumping blood it is simultaneously sending a pulse of energy in the form of a signal. This signal [vibration] for the most part starts as an electrical signal from the emotional centers in our neural net. In other words as we experience, we think about experience, this information is translated, or compressed into a feeling.

This feeling as an electrical signal Causes changes to the way the heart not only beats, but more subtle changes in this wave pulse

 

This signal, as I have explained earlier {post 12 } causes a chain reaction forming certain genomic biochemical response. Depending on the coherence of the signal.

 

So in answer to your question it is both electrical and subtle vibratory responses.

 

And I'm sure much much more.

[metatron]

 

3/what effect does the soul have on the body?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question in terms of "effect"

[mmalluck]

The heart as it is pumping blood it is simultaneously sending a pulse of energy in the form of a signal. This signal [vibration] for the most part starts as an electrical signal from the emotional centers in our neural net. In other words as we experience' date=' we think about experience, this information is translated, or compressed into a feeling.

This feeling as an electrical signal Causes changes to the way the heart not only beats, but more subtle changes in this wave pulse

[/quote']

 

Even subtitle changes are measurable. When's the last time and EKG showed the emotional state of someone? It can show if someone is under stress or having a heart attack, but beyond that I don't believe the heart customizes it's beats to exact some kind of emotional state, just physical states.

 

Another problem: people come in all shapes and sizes with differing body structures, as such, any mechanical resonance will be different for each person. There's no universal resonating frequency for people or certain structures. Each person's body would have to learn and relearn what these resonance are for their given size and structure.

 

There's also an issue with the size of a structure, the smaller the structure, the higher the mechanical frequency necessary to get it to resonate. The heart is not capable generating very high frequency signal components (1-250Hz).

 

Using Google we find many studies of the frequency components of EKG's and QRS measurements. They discuss how changes in the frequency distribution signify defect within the heart, not emotion.

 

QRS electrocardiograph frequencies link to disease:

http://www.ijbem.org/volume6/number1/tsutsumi.pdf

http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/July03/MSC23154.html

http://www.med.muni.cz/biomedjournal/pdf/2002/05/223-230.pdf

 

Heart Rate Variability and it links to disease and stress:

http://www.macses.ucsf.edu/Research/Allostatic/notebook/heart.rate.html

http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/a.brogni/public/download/2004_Guger_HRV.pdf

[Dak]

ok, ill reword number 3: what effect would removing ones soul have?

 

and these love waves, we are talking a mixture of eletromagnetic radiation and vibrations of the surrounding matter (air, the floor etc), are we?

[Mokele]

what effect would removing ones soul have?

 

The immediate inclination to run for political office.

[ecoli]

The immediate inclination to run for political office.

 

Or to start sucking blood, don a suit and become a lawyer.

[Dak]

ah, well, thats easy then. if the soul is attached to the heart, then anyone getting a heart-transplant from a lawyer would essentialy recieve a soul-transplant aswell, and would become a lawyer/polititian themselfes. as this is not the case, i feel that we can safely discount the hypothesys that the soul is anchored to the heart. or something.

[metatron]

ok' date=' ill reword number 3: what effect would removing ones soul have?

 

and these love waves, we are talking a mixture of eletromagnetic radiation and vibrations of the surrounding matter (air, the floor etc), are we?[/quote']

 

 

I don't think you can lose your soul. you can lose your body However, all that’s left is this collective aspect of the soul, so it was never yours to lose in the first place.

 

 

The love wave has something to do with resonance or what has been refered to as "coherance" the ability for waves to embed. This sounds like the feelling, like a perfectly struck pitch that creates a resonants.

[metatron]

ah, well, thats easy then. if the soul is attached to the heart, then anyone getting a heart-transplant from a lawyer would essentialy recieve a soul-transplant aswell, and would become a lawyer/polititian themselfes. as this is not the case, i feel that we can safely discount the hypothesys that the soul is anchored to the heart. or something.

 

 

 

 

Life is metaphysical first, physical secondly; the heart is just tissue like the hamburger you had for lunch, you incorporate this material into a physical temporal system but this system only contain atoms that come and go. the eternal foundation is metaphysical soul. {Or if you prefer quantum aspect\wave function}

 

The heart from a layer is not going to turn you into attorney any more than eating a cow will make you moo. or eating a lawyer will turn you into one.

[atinymonkey]

Life is metaphysical first, physical secondly;

Life is physical first, as this is how we perceive it. It would be metaphysical second, if such an illusionary state existed.

 

 

The heart from a layer is not going to turn you into shyster any more than eating a cow will make you moo.

I'm not sure if you are trying to explain your religious view, but showing bigotry surrounding the nature of Lawyers does a lot to undermine your pseudo-religious statements. An enlightend soul would not harbor or express such views.

[metatron]

Life is physical first' date=' as this is how we perceive it. It would be metaphysical second, if such an illusionary state existed.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you are trying to explain your religious view, but showing bigotry surrounding the nature of Lawyers does a lot to undermine your pseudo-religious statements. An enlightend soul would not harbor or express such views.[/quote']

 

 

 

Ok, not all layers or shiysters.

[Dak]

I don't think you can lose your soul. you can lose your body However, all that’s left is this collective aspect of the soul, so it was never yours to lose in the first place.

ok, but if the soul is rooted to the heart, and the person recieves a heart transplant, what happens to the soul(s) involved?

Life is metaphysical first' date=' physical secondly; the heart is just tissue like the hamburger you had for lunch, you incorporate this material into a physical temporal system but this system only contain atoms that come and go. the eternal foundation is metaphysical soul. {Or if you prefer quantum aspect\wave function}[/quote']yes, individual atoms are replaced within the body, but the contingent aspect of the body is the information: each atom replaces another atom within roughly the same area, so even though the atoms change, the positioning of the atoms relative to one-another (the information) remains the same.

 

i know my above paragraph was slightly innacurate, but the overall concept explains the contingency of humans despite the replacement of the component parts more elagantly and simply than the concept of a soul and/or something odd involving a combination of eletromagnetism and kinetic energy (love waves, as far as i can tell).

 

if you can expain (with proof) a valid hypothesis as to how the soul/love waves do any of the things that you are claiming that they do, then maybe we might begin to approach a position where we could concider accepting your ideas, but without proof it aint gonna happen im afraid.

[metatron]

ok, but if the soul is rooted to the heart, and the person recieves a heart transplant, what happens to the soul(s) involved?yes, individual atoms are replaced within the body, but the contingent aspect of the body is the information: each atom replaces another atom within roughly the same area, so even though the atoms change, the positioning of the atoms relative to one-another (the information) remains the same..

 

 

Excellent point, the donor heart would retain a specific molecular code in the form of DNA, so the question is how does this physical signature relate to the wave pattern. Remember The signal originates from the neural net{memory} this signal is then sent to the heart as an electrical information. So the wave pattern remains constant. This is the signature pulses that keeps us connected to the collective whole.

[metatron]

if you can expain (with proof) a valid hypothesis as to how the soul/love waves do any of the things that you are claiming that they do' date=' then maybe we might begin to approach a position where [b']we [/b] could concider accepting your ideas, but without proof it aint gonna happen im afraid.

 

I'v never been one to be limited by what some define as the "we".

You seem to be trapped by what can only be defined by the concusses. Here is a quote from “The Art of Dreaming” that sums this up very profoundly.

 

 

"Don Jaun’s argument was that most of our energy goes into upholding our

 

importance. This is most obvious in our endless worry about the presentation

 

of the self, about whether or not we are admired or liked or acknowledged.

 

He reasoned that if we were capable of losing some of that importance, two

 

extraordinary things would happen to us. One, we would free our energy from

 

trying to maintain the illusory idea of our grandeur, and two ,we would

 

provide ourselves with enough energy to enter into the second attention to

 

catch a glimpse of the actual grandeur of the universe".........

 

Carlos Castaneda

[Sayonara]

Being asked to present something in a specific fashion is not "being limited".

 

If you can't provide a proper mechanism, then say so now so that people can save time by ignoring the thread.

[metatron]

Why do I threaten you? What I'm I saying That you obviously find so offensive?

[Dak]

I'v never been one to be limited by what some define as the "we".

You seem to be trapped by what can only be defined by the concusses. Here is a quote from “The Art of Dreaming” that sums this up very profoundly.

well, i assumed that the point of posting and discussing your idea was to get people to accept it -- i was merely pointing out that, as scientists, we require evidence and locialy sound hypothesys before we will accept ideas.

 

so far, you have not presented any evidence or an explination as to why your theory of 'love waves' is nessesaraly true (for example, what does your theory explain that science currently cannot). as far as i can tell, you havent actually explained what love waves actualy do.