iNow Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 "America voted for a rollercoaster, so buckle up people, because we're only 10ft up the clicky part." - Jordan Klepper
EdEarl Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 Trump is a con man with no empathy, whose actions as president are despicable. I would like to see him impeached and sent to prison. I'd feel good that justice had been served. However, Trump is a circus who distracts us from the important issue; his impeachment would have no significant effect on US politics, where money rules and the super rich control politicians. We need a constitutional amendment to assure one person one vote, and to exclude corporations from the political process. 1
geordief Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) For America's own sake it will have to consciously-and with great difficulty- tone down the schadenfraude if this goes all the way. Even If Trump gets what he seems to me to deserve things could get even worse in his wake. This has been coming a long while . Substitute Trump's "America First" for "America united" (if only to a respectable degree) and he may have had a point. I have little hope for this as things seem to be worsening at the moment although it will be helpful if the immediate or medium term outcome is clear cut (and that an adult is put in charge of the toughest job on the planet) Will there also be a temptation to use Putin as a scapegoat for America's own problems? Edited May 18, 2017 by geordief
DrP Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 Personally I think this recent Russian meeting is overblown. Why wouldn't the POUS share intel about ISIS with the Russians? They are supposed to be allies in the fight against ISIS no? If the POTUS deems it relevant to share military intel with the enemy of their enemies then, imo, he should do so (probably after some kind of defence meeting with his Generals though).
Delta1212 Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 Personally I think this recent Russian meeting is overblown. Why wouldn't the POUS share intel about ISIS with the Russians? They are supposed to be allies in the fight against ISIS no? If the POTUS deems it relevant to share military intel with the enemy of their enemies then, imo, he should do so (probably after some kind of defence meeting with his Generals though). The problem is not just sharing intel. It is sharing Intel provided by an ally who didn't want us to pass that Intel along, and with enough specificity to allow Russia to compromise our ally's intelligence operation, an operation that, because of the fact that it is Syria based, may very well be, have been or could be used against the Russians themselves. And the reason you don't do that is that now that ally in particular and other allies seeing this will be less likely to share information with us that they don't want us spreading around at our sole discretion and without consulting them. 1
KipIngram Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 Well, without disagreeing with your point that it will cause allies to be less forthcoming in the future, the even more fundamental reason you don't do it is that it's just wrong - it's a violation of trust. But Trump's made it very clear that his mouth is absolutely unfiltered. The man feels inherently superior to everyone around him, and that's not surprising given that he's been the supreme dictator of his business operation for most of his life.
DrP Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) I see those points there Delta and Kip - but to play advocate for a second I would say that no-one even needed to know that he shared anything at all with the Russians. He could have shared the intel for the good of everyone (the Russians ARE on our side against ISIS afterall) and kept quiet about it and the source would be none the wiser if the Russians were discrete.. but having this plastered all over the world's news is a total disaster. It globally publicises the whole affair - which imo should have been kept quite in the interest of national security. Edited May 18, 2017 by DrP
KipIngram Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 That's a good point. Though I certainly think the original source of the information should know; they're the ones with potentially exposed operations. But yes, it's hard to call the media process much more than a circus these days.
zapatos Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 I see those points there Delta and Kip - but to play advocate for a second I would say that no-one even needed to know that he shared anything at all with the Russians. He could have shared the intel for the good of everyone (the Russians ARE on our side against ISIS afterall) and kept quiet about it and the source would be none the wiser if the Russians were discrete.. but having this plastered all over the world's news is a total disaster. It globally publicises the whole affair - which imo should have been kept quite in the interest of national security. I disagree. The Israeli's needed to know. It was their people and their operations that were put at risk.
DrP Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 They may be at risk now that the whole world know about it! No-one needed to know that the exchange took place - if the POTUS can't have a secret meeting with a foreign head of state without the content of the conversation being publicised globally then I do despair at the state of things. I am not wanting to defend him - I was a big fan of your last pres - I liked the fact he bought in an affordable health care program that helped those that needed it the most. I despise the fact that (although it wasn't perfect) it has been cynically ripped apart and thrown out as socialist or communist junk.... to be replaced with what? A total joke.
geordief Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 I disagree. The Israeli's needed to know. It was their people and their operations that were put at risk.Bound to have found out.Even worse if they just suspected it.
DrP Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 How would they find out? If those involved had of kept their traps shut how would anyone know about the leak. Do we even know what info was exchanged?
geordief Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 How would they find out? If those involved had of kept their traps shut how would anyone know about the leak. Do we even know what info was exchanged?That is what Mossad does -"finds out".Indirectly if necessary.As a one off perhaps not but a pattern is harder to conceal.
zapatos Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) They may be at risk now that the whole world know about it! No-one needed to know that the exchange took place - if the POTUS can't have a secret meeting with a foreign head of state without the content of the conversation being publicised globally then I do despair at the state of things. I am not wanting to defend him - I was a big fan of your last pres - I liked the fact he bought in an affordable health care program that helped those that needed it the most. I despise the fact that (although it wasn't perfect) it has been cynically ripped apart and thrown out as socialist or communist junk.... to be replaced with what? A total joke. They were at risk as soon as the Russians knew. The rest of the world, as far as we know, doesn't know any of the details that can put the people or operations at risk. All the rest of the world knows is that the Russians have the details. Unless of course the Russians shared the details with, say, Syria. The problem was not that we talked to the Russians about ISIS, it was that we shared specific details the Russians did not need to know. Similarly, there is nothing necessarily wrong with telling an outside party that we know Organized Crime is planning some nefarious activity, but we shouldn't give out the details that could allow Organized Crime to figure out who within their organization is giving us the information. How would they find out? If those involved had of kept their traps shut how would anyone know about the leak. Do we even know what info was exchanged? Even if they never found out it was still wrong. We put their people at risk. The Israelis may never have found out what went wrong when one of their people died due to Trump leaking information. Edited May 18, 2017 by zapatos
swansont Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 It's not happening, ladies and gentlemen. Now, please, instead of trying to sabotage our president, and harming out country in the process, let's start working together to build a more prosperous America. Blame-shifting isn't going to work here. Nobody but Trump himself is sabotaging Trump, and pointing out his administration's transgressions is not what is causing harm to the country.
Delta1212 Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 They may be at risk now that the whole world know about it! No-one needed to know that the exchange took place - if the POTUS can't have a secret meeting with a foreign head of state without the content of the conversation being publicised globally then I do despair at the state of things. I am not wanting to defend him - I was a big fan of your last pres - I liked the fact he bought in an affordable health care program that helped those that needed it the most. I despise the fact that (although it wasn't perfect) it has been cynically ripped apart and thrown out as socialist or communist junk.... to be replaced with what? A total joke. Russia is not our ally in Syria. We are both against ISIS, but the Syrian civil war is not two-sided, and we are decidedly not backing the same people as the Russians. It's a mess of competing interests, and Israel's intelligence operation being compromised by Russia puts them at risk for the future. The information that has one out points to Trump providing the Russians with specific details about a threat that would allow them to pinpoint the source of the information on the ground. At best, that will render Israeli intelligence completely unreliable as it pertains to Assad and Russian interests in the area. At worst, someone will wind up dead. Those are both true regardless of whether the Israelis found out from us or not. There is a reason that we didn't pass this information along even to allies, and Russia is very far from an ally, even in the region in question.
Airbrush Posted May 18, 2017 Author Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) Suppose Hillary Clinton won the election. How much resistance would she get from congress? She may have even been impeached. Gridlocked government is what we get no matter who won the election. From the praise that the new special prosecutor Bob Mueller is getting from both parties, he should be drafted into the presidency after Trump and his cohorts are removed from office. Or get ready for Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson as president! Wealth and celebrity WILL win an election as we have seen with Trump and Schwarzenegger. Edited May 18, 2017 by Airbrush
Phi for All Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 How would they find out? If those involved had of kept their traps shut how would anyone know about the leak. Do we even know what info was exchanged? As I understand it (Delta1212 mentioned it earlier), the information Trump shared with Russia could be traced back to an asset we shouldn't want Russia knowing about (and really had no right to endanger). For that alone, he should offer an apology. It has nothing to do with anyone keeping their traps shut. He made it easier for Russia to pinpoint an Israeli intelligence asset. Very bad. It was also a huge blunder to give up such a valuable bit of intel for nothing, and it's not the first time he's done it. I thought negotiation strategy was supposed to be a strong point? Brilliant dealmaker? AHCA anybody? He doesn't seem to be a very good negotiator. He spurns best practices even in the fields where he claims expertise, and he doesn't deal with people as partners. He bulldozes in an attempt to get the most in the moment, with no attention to relationships and the hard work it takes to maintain them. 1
DrmDoc Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) As I understand it (Delta1212 mentioned it earlier), the information Trump shared with Russia could be traced back to an asset we shouldn't want Russia knowing about (and really had no right to endanger). For that alone, he should offer an apology. It has nothing to do with anyone keeping their traps shut. He made it easier for Russia to pinpoint an Israeli intelligence asset. Very bad. It was also a huge blunder to give up such a valuable bit of intel for nothing, and it's not the first time he's done it. I thought negotiation strategy was supposed to be a strong point? Brilliant dealmaker? AHCA anybody? He doesn't seem to be a very good negotiator. He spurns best practices even in the fields where he claims expertise, and he doesn't deal with people as partners. He bulldozes in an attempt to get the most in the moment, with no attention to relationships and the hard work it takes to maintain them. As I understand Trump's blunder, we have agreements with certain intelligence partners in other nations forbidding the disclosure of shared intelligence outside that partnership without those nations permission. The agreement was indeed for the security and safety of intelligence sources. Essentially, Donald flipped Israel the bird in sharing their intelligence with the Russian ambassador without Israel's permission. Although he didn't break any laws, it's more evidence of his lack of regard for the secrecy responsibilities of the presidency. I expect other nations will no longer share sensitive security intel if they believe that intel will be shared without permission. Edited May 18, 2017 by DrmDoc
KipIngram Posted May 19, 2017 Posted May 19, 2017 No, clearly they were potentially at risk just from the Russians knowing, if the Russians had any concern that the Israeli's were also gathering information on them (the Russians). The ACA wasn't just "imperfect" - it just didn't work as claimed at all. If you want to discuss the ACA, please open a thread, because that would pull us OT for sure. Health "insurance" is a mess in the United States, and has been for years, and I don't know if I see a very good solution.
geordief Posted May 19, 2017 Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Some people speculating the White House Stain was set up with false intelligence. Would be funny if true. Even the smartest can stumble "It's HIGHLY likely that #Trump was set up by the USIC. And he took the bait, hook-line-and-sinker." https://twitter.com/DrDenaGrayson Edited May 19, 2017 by geordief
Airbrush Posted May 24, 2017 Author Posted May 24, 2017 Ever notice that republicans often say about the Russia/Trump investigation, that there is no evidence of collusion. Trump, with his surrogates, and Fox News will say there is no "there...there". Is the reason for no evidence, "no there there" is because the current investigations are like vacuum cleaners, sucking up all related evidence. So there is NO evidence because it is confidential under rules for the investigations. Right? The wheels of impeachment are slowly grinding away as the evasiveness of Trump and Company becomes more apparent. All it will take is a few more self-inflicted crises and republicans finally realize Trump isn't getting any more clever, and they must deal with their own problem.
DrP Posted May 24, 2017 Posted May 24, 2017 On the subject of leaking intelligence I heard on the radio today that the US had released details about who Salman Albedi was before the British secret service was ready to disclose anything about him. It said that the secret service requested discretion from the US as to the ID of the bomber until after they had finished a certain line of enquiries and had released the info themselves to the British public - but the Americans just went ahead and released all of the info they had on Albedi anyway without any regard to the request from the British not too. It was probably a clerical error or some kind of incompetence rather than a fingers up to the British.. but it is still pretty dumb.
EdEarl Posted May 24, 2017 Posted May 24, 2017 (edited) Some people speculating the White House Stain was set up with false intelligence. Would be funny if true. Even the smartest can stumble "It's HIGHLY likely that #Trump was set up by the USIC. And he took the bait, hook-line-and-sinker." https://twitter.com/DrDenaGrayson Your twitter reference is not evidence of USIC doing anything; in fact, there is no reference to USIC. Moreover, thinking that sixteen different intelligence agencies could cooperate to provide false information is as likely as throwing a ball into orbit. On the other hand, that they are inept enough to provide false information is possible. The president needs to be smart enough to realize that intelligence reports are often opinion and incorrect to some degree. Edited May 24, 2017 by EdEarl
Delta1212 Posted May 24, 2017 Posted May 24, 2017 On the subject of leaking intelligence I heard on the radio today that the US had released details about who Salman Albedi was before the British secret service was ready to disclose anything about him. It said that the secret service requested discretion from the US as to the ID of the bomber until after they had finished a certain line of enquiries and had released the info themselves to the British public - but the Americans just went ahead and released all of the info they had on Albedi anyway without any regard to the request from the British not too. It was probably a clerical error or some kind of incompetence rather than a fingers up to the British.. but it is still pretty dumb. A government that gets gutted and then only partially restaffed by in-fighting idiots doesn't always do the best job? Wow, I thought this fresh new approach would do better than that. 1
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