Consciousness

[Neuroman]

This is a question, not actually a blog. Here it goes:

If the brain creates consciousness, then it has to be a conscious object. If it is a conscious object then why should we have to improve the brain's mechanism by challenging it or else it would lose its intelligence; then the brain should be able to conserve its intelligence without letting the control of its conscious parts. We know that is not the case. The case is we have to improve the brain. We are conscious of ourselves. If that is the case, then who are we? What is our potential?

 

I am looking forward for replies!!

Edited February 11, 2017 by Neuroman

[Strange]

This is a question, not actually a blog. Here it goes:

If the brain creates consciousness, then it has to be a conscious object.

 

Why?

 

 

 

If it is a conscious object then why should we have to improve the brain's mechanism by challenging it or else it would lose its intelligence; then the brain should be able to conserve its intelligence without letting the control of its conscious parts.

 

I don't understand. What "challenges" are you talking about? Why would the brain lose intelligence?

 

 

 

The case is we have to improve the brain.

 

Why? And in what way?

[Neuroman]

 

 

Why?

 

 

I don't understand. What "challenges" are you talking about? Why would the brain lose intelligence?

 

 

Why? And in what way?

 

 

If the brain was not a conscious object, how would the brain actually create consciousness? The answer further to this is unknown to me. If you know something regarding this , brief it.

If you go by the intelligence of the brain it's " Use it or lose it". You will lose the intelligence of the brain if you don't use it implies if you don't challenge it by giving puzzles , or by math , or by learning a new language. If you challenge the brain its functioning improves and thus we improve the functioning of the brain.

[Strange]

If the brain was not a conscious object, how would the brain actually create consciousness?

 

What do you mean by a "conscious object"?

 

What is the difference between the brain creating consciousness and the brain being a conscious object?

 

 

 

You will lose the intelligence of the brain if you don't use it

 

Do you have any evidence for this?

[DrmDoc]

This is a question, not actually a blog. Here it goes:

If the brain creates consciousness, then it has to be a conscious object. If it is a conscious object then why should we have to improve the brain's mechanism by challenging it or else it would lose its intelligence; then the brain should be able to conserve its intelligence without letting the control of its conscious parts. We know that is not the case. The case is we have to improve the brain. We are conscious of ourselves. If that is the case, then who are we? What is our potential?

 

I am looking forward for replies!!

 

The brain does indeed produce consciousness but the process isn't that simple. The brain requires a sensory apparatus and sensory input to complete the process. By "conscious object" I presume you are referring to the brain as consciousness incarnate suggesting that it doesn't require any support or input to produce consciousness. If that is your opinion, I disagree. To produce consciousness, the brain requires a means by which it may acquire awareness of itself and its environment. In isolation from its physical sensory systems, the brain is incapable of seeing, feeling pain, or experiencing any sensation of life experience. Those sensations are how we are able to define ourselves and make distinctions about our environment. Through the physical sensory systems of the body the brain is made aware of its environment and its perceptual distinctions from that environment.

 

A measure of intelligence could be how well we understand and use information from our sensory environment. How well we acquire, understand, retain, and use information are products of our brain's functional matrix. That matrix requires input and stimulation to maintain optimal production output and function. For example, we forget what we've learned when we infrequently access those memories because we tend to retain information that we engage frequently and information that significantly impact our survival needs and a subset of social experiences.

 

Essentially, the brain is not in and of itself conscious without stimuli and a sensory structure to experience that stimuli.

Edited February 11, 2017 by DrmDoc

[Acme]

This is a question, not actually a blog. Here it goes:

If the brain creates consciousness, then it has to be a conscious object. If it is a conscious object then why should we have to improve the brain's mechanism by challenging it or else it would lose its intelligence; then the brain should be able to conserve its intelligence without letting the control of its conscious parts. We know that is not the case. The case is we have to improve the brain. We are conscious of ourselves. If that is the case, then who are we? What is our potential?

 

I am looking forward for replies!!

Strange loop

 

...

Hofstadter argues that the psychological self arises out of a similar kind of paradox. We are not born with an "I" the ego emerges only gradually as experience shapes our dense web of active symbols into a tapestry rich and complex enough to begin twisting back upon itself. According to this view the psychological "I" is a narrative fiction, something created only from intake of symbolic data and its own ability to create stories about itself from that data. The consequence is that a perspective (a mind) is a culmination of a unique pattern of symbolic activity in our nervous systems, which suggests that the pattern of symbolic activity that makes identity, that constitutes subjectivity, can be replicated within the brains of others, and perhaps even in artificial brains.

...

Downward causality

 

Hofstadter thinks our minds appear to us to determine the world by way of "downward causality", which refers to a situation where a cause-and-effect relationship in a system gets flipped upside-down. Hofstadter says this happens in the proof of Gödel's incompleteness theorem:

 

Merely from knowing the formula's meaning, one can infer its truth or falsity without any effort to derive it in the old-fashioned way, which requires one to trudge methodically "upwards" from the axioms. This is not just peculiar; it is astonishing. Normally, one cannot merely look at what a mathematical conjecture says and simply appeal to the content of that statement on its own to deduce whether the statement is true or false. (pp. 169-170)

 

Hofstadter claims a similar "flipping around of causality" appears to happen in minds possessing self-consciousness. The mind perceives itself as the cause of certain feelings ("I" am the source of my desires), while according to popular scientific models, feelings and desires are strictly caused by the interactions of neurons.

[Neuroman]

 

What do you mean by a "conscious object"?

Conscious object implies is aware of its subjective experience or itself.

What is the difference between the brain creating consciousness and the brain being a conscious object?

There is no difference. If the brain creates consciousness then the brain will be aware of its existence. That indeed is true. But the idea of I comes in between. The question whether the I is the conscious apart from the brain or the assumption as an independent entity created by the braiin.

 

Do you have any evidence for this?

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/12/09/brain-plasticity.aspx

 

[Strange]

 

 

What do you mean by a "conscious object"?

Conscious object implies is aware of its subjective experience or itself.

What is the difference between the brain creating consciousness and the brain being a conscious object?

There is no difference. If the brain creates consciousness then the brain will be aware of its existence. That indeed is true.

 

 

 

 

So the brain is conscious because it is conscious. Brilliant. I am sure philosophers will be celebrating that insight for decades.

 

 

But the idea of I comes in between. The question whether the I is the conscious apart from the brain or the assumption as an independent entity created by the braiin.

 

Your sense of identity is a side effect of the form of consciousness and self-awareness that the brain produces.

 

 

 

Do you have any evidence for this?

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/12/09/brain-plasticity.aspx

 

1. That is about age-related decline not loss of function through lack of use.

 

2. Please try and use science to support your articles, not marketing material from someone selling their services and products.

 

3. So try again.

 

Please provide a scientific reference for "You will lose the intelligence of the brain if you don't use it"

[Neuroman]

 

 

So the brain is conscious because it is conscious. Brilliant. I am sure philosophers will be celebrating that insight for decades.

 

 

Your sense of identity is a side effect of the form of consciousness and self-awareness that the brain produces.

 

 

1. That is about age-related decline not loss of function through lack of use.

 

2. Please try and use science to support your articles, not marketing material from someone selling their services and products.

 

3. So try again.

 

Please provide a scientific reference for "You will lose the intelligence of the brain if you don't use it"

 

Obviously age related decline happens and in order to reduce that age related decline you have to use your brain or else you go getting dumber and the brain doesn't remain agile. You didn't read the article deeply and understood it. I didn't mention very deeply about the age related decline but since you age everyday don't you think the brain needs to be kept agile as it ages since it has to survive till the end. I just generalized it. Please try understanding things deeply before commenting.

Obviously age related decline happens and in order to reduce that age related decline you have to use your brain or else you go getting dumber and the brain doesn't remain agile. You didn't read the article deeply and understood it. I didn't mention very deeply about the age related decline but since you age everyday don't you think the brain needs to be kept agile as it ages since it has to survive till the end. I just generalized it. Please try understanding things deeply before commenting.

Also the idea that the brain creates consciousness is highly debated and questioned and also another branch of science regarding this called the post materialist science is emerging.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Neuroman

[Strange]

I didn't mention very deeply about the age related decline but since you age everyday don't you think the brain needs to be kept agile as it ages since it has to survive till the end.

 

 

No. That sounds like nonsense. How about providing some science to support this?

 

 

 

Also the idea that the brain creates consciousness is highly debated and questioned and also another branch of science regarding this called the post materialist science is emerging.

 

Citation needed. (Sounds like bollocks to me.)

[Neuroman]

 

 

No. That sounds like nonsense. How about providing some science to support this?

 

 

Citation needed. (Sounds like bollocks to me.)

You have got an internet. Research in it. Don't ask me to put every link which I have researched into. I know you want to know more but it's better if you do it yourself. Who knows you may come to another conclusion and regarding the age related decline it's just simple reasoning. I cannot do anything if you cannot reason properly out of the given material. That article is itself enough but if you want you can go check out in the net. If certain things sounds like nonsense to you don't you think that whatever scientific discoveries have been made should be nonsense because once upon a time when they were presented, if people had thought that it was nonsense, it is not something is wrong with the scientist but something's wrong with the people. I suppose you know how to draw conclusions out of a given evidence and observation.

You have got an internet. Research in it. Don't ask me to put every link which I have researched into. I know you want to know more but it's better if you do it yourself. Who knows you may come to another conclusion and regarding the age related decline it's just simple reasoning. I cannot do anything if you cannot reason properly out of the given material. That article is itself enough but if you want you can go check out in the net. If certain things sounds like nonsense to you don't you think that whatever scientific discoveries have been made should be nonsense because once upon a time when they were presented, if people had thought that it was nonsense, it is not something is wrong with the scientist but something's wrong with the people. I suppose you know how to draw conclusions out of a given evidence and observation. If something sounds like bollocks its not my problem its yours. I cannot do anything about it.

You have got an internet. Research in it. Don't ask me to put every link which I have researched into. I know you want to know more but it's better if you do it yourself. Who knows you may come to another conclusion and regarding the age related decline it's just simple reasoning. I cannot do anything if you cannot reason properly out of the given material. That article is itself enough but if you want you can go check out in the net. If certain things sounds like nonsense to you don't you think that whatever scientific discoveries have been made should be nonsense because once upon a time when they were presented, if people had thought that it was nonsense, it is not something is wrong with the scientist but something's wrong with the people. I suppose you know how to draw conclusions out of a given evidence and observation.

If u want to prove your point of view prove it with your evidence.

[Itoero]

This is a question, not actually a blog. Here it goes:

If the brain creates consciousness, then it has to be a conscious object. If it is a conscious object then why should we have to improve the brain's mechanism by challenging it or else it would lose its intelligence; then the brain should be able to conserve its intelligence without letting the control of its conscious parts. We know that is not the case. The case is we have to improve the brain. We are conscious of ourselves. If that is the case, then who are we? What is our potential?

 

I am looking forward for replies!!

Consciousness is a mix of intelligence and memory(stored knowledge).

Our intelligence allows us to store knowledge/experience and allows the stored knowledge to 'interact'.

 

When a baby gets born he has only intelligence and the only thing that enters his mind is knowledge/experience.

So consciousness has to be a property that arises from the interacting of stored knowledge

 

The intelligence is then the motherboard and the memory is the RAM.

Your eyes are then the pc-screen and your graphic card contains the optic nerves.

Someone with a strong graphic memory has a high RAM on its graphic card.

[Strange]

You have got an internet. Research in it.

Err, no. That is not how intelligent discussion works. If you make a claim it is up to you to support it.

That article is itself enough ...

It was an advert[/]. And so lacking in credibility.

If u want to prove your point of view prove it with your evidence.

I don't have a point of view that needs to be proved. (Not that proof exists in science.) I am just asking you to support your claims. Seems reasonable to me.

[Neuroman]

Err, no. That is not how intelligent discussion works. If you make a claim it is up to you to support it.

 

It was an advert[/]. And so lacking in credibility.

 

I don't have a point of view that needs to be proved. (Not that proof exists in science.) I am just asking you to support your claims. Seems reasonable to me.

This is for post-materialism. http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science

And the other part reagrding the age related related decline can be reasoned like this:

 

The whole body keeps getting older and older everyday. This means that the brain too gets older and older everyday. As its said that the bran declines age wise i.e the the brain's performance goes down when you get older. As I mentioned earlier we get older everyday that means that the brain declines day by day. However we don't experience this when we are young since we are subjected to a lot of brain activity. Whenever an intense rain activity is performed the neuro connections hard wire and this is called sprout and at the same it sheds excess brain connections which is called pruning. If we don't reinforce these hardwire neuroconnections we risk getting pruned which means that the brain activity and this leads to a easier age related decline which reduces brain performance which can be pointed out to reduce intelligence and learning capabilities.

[Ten oz]

@ Neuroman, Your questions seems to mostly pertain intelligence of a couscious brain altering or dimishing. Problem appears to be you are asking that question with a specific definition of consciousness in mind that isn't shared by all in this discussion. I think you are treating consciousness, brain, and intelligence as synonymous, they are not.

 

Consciousness is simply defined as being aware, self aware. My cat is conscious. There is not a intelligence requirement for consciousness to exist. Something is either self awre our it isn't. Which is why the term unconscious exists. It is a state of being and not a state of knowing, understanding, processing, learning, doing, or etc.

 

You said "the brain should be able to conserve its intelligence", consciousness exists within the brain and not the other way around. Memory too exists in the brain but is not stored within consciousness. The brain creates pathways between emotions, memories, things learned, and etc. Those pathways can change and like any other organ in your body diet, age, environment, etc can impact the health of ones brain.

[Eise]

This is for post-materialism. http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science

 

Oh no, not again. This 'manifesto' was already discussed here.

[Strange]

This is for post-materialism. http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science

And the other part reagrding the age related related decline can be reasoned like this:

 

The whole body keeps getting older and older everyday. This means that the brain too gets older and older everyday. As its said that the bran declines age wise i.e the the brain's performance goes down when you get older. As I mentioned earlier we get older everyday that means that the brain declines day by day. However we don't experience this when we are young since we are subjected to a lot of brain activity. Whenever an intense rain activity is performed the neuro connections hard wire and this is called sprout and at the same it sheds excess brain connections which is called pruning. If we don't reinforce these hardwire neuroconnections we risk getting pruned which means that the brain activity and this leads to a easier age related decline which reduces brain performance which can be pointed out to reduce intelligence and learning capabilities.

So,no evidence then.

[Neuroman]

So,no evidence then.

Do you seriously know how to reason? You are behind evidence. Reasoning is what we do based on observations and that's how science is created. Its not in your capability I suppose as how to reason. There is nothing I can do .

 

Consciousness is a mix of intelligence and memory(stored knowledge).

Our intelligence allows us to store knowledge/experience and allows the stored knowledge to 'interact'.

 

When a baby gets born he has only intelligence and the only thing that enters his mind is knowledge/experience.

So consciousness has to be a property that arises from the interacting of stored knowledge

 

The intelligence is then the motherboard and the memory is the RAM.

Your eyes are then the pc-screen and your graphic card contains the optic nerves.

Someone with a strong graphic memory has a high RAM on its graphic card.

 

 

Strange loop

 

 

 

 

The brain does indeed produce consciousness but the process isn't that simple. The brain requires a sensory apparatus and sensory input to complete the process. By "conscious object" I presume you are referring to the brain as consciousness incarnate suggesting that it doesn't require any support or input to produce consciousness. If that is your opinion, I disagree. To produce consciousness, the brain requires a means by which it may acquire awareness of itself and its environment. In isolation from its physical sensory systems, the brain is incapable of seeing, feeling pain, or experiencing any sensation of life experience. Those sensations are how we are able to define ourselves and make distinctions about our environment. Through the physical sensory systems of the body the brain is made aware of its environment and its perceptual distinctions from that environment.

 

A measure of intelligence could be how well we understand and use information from our sensory environment. How well we acquire, understand, retain, and use information are products of our brain's functional matrix. That matrix requires input and stimulation to maintain optimal production output and function. For example, we forget what we've learned when we infrequently access those memories because we tend to retain information that we engage frequently and information that significantly impact our survival needs and a subset of social experiences.

 

Essentially, the brain is not in and of itself conscious without stimuli and a sensory structure to experience that stimuli.

 

 

@ Neuroman, Your questions seems to mostly pertain intelligence of a couscious brain altering or dimishing. Problem appears to be you are asking that question with a specific definition of consciousness in mind that isn't shared by all in this discussion. I think you are treating consciousness, brain, and intelligence as synonymous, they are not.

 

Consciousness is simply defined as being aware, self aware. My cat is conscious. There is not a intelligence requirement for consciousness to exist. Something is either self awre our it isn't. Which is why the term unconscious exists. It is a state of being and not a state of knowing, understanding, processing, learning, doing, or etc.

 

You said "the brain should be able to conserve its intelligence", consciousness exists within the brain and not the other way around. Memory too exists in the brain but is not stored within consciousness. The brain creates pathways between emotions, memories, things learned, and etc. Those pathways can change and like any other organ in your body diet, age, environment, etc can impact the health of ones brain.

Thank you guys for putting your point of view. I couldn't define the question that neatly but you all did give me some insight and knowledge regarding my question and doubts.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Neuroman

[Strange]

Do you seriously know how to reason? You are behind evidence. Reasoning is what we do based on observations and that's how science is created. Its not in your capability I suppose as how to reason. There is nothing I can do .

 

 

You have come up with an apparently logical hypothesis. The next step is to check if it corresponds to reality or not. For that you need evidence. Many apparently sensible ideas do not match how the brain or the universe actually works.

[Neuroman]

 

 

You have come up with an apparently logical hypothesis. The next step is to check if it corresponds to reality or not. For that you need evidence. Many apparently sensible ideas do not match how the brain or the universe actually works.

We have to find out an evidence for that now. There is not much evidence out there right now regarding this. If you too can help me then it would very nice of you.

[Strange]

If you too can help me then it would very nice of you.

 

 

No, that is your job.

[Neuroman]

That is not a way a person on the quest for learning something would reply. If you are just here to debate and try to show that you are something then I am in no mood of telling you if I find the evidence also.

[Strange]

That is not a way a person on the quest for learning something would reply.

 

 

Until you have some evidence to support your hypothesis, there is nothing to learn. Go for it!