Stem cell research?

[revprez]

i dont believe that any research currently kills embryos for their stem-cells; rather, the embryos are 'killed' to avoid the pregnancy carrying through to result in a baby, and then[/u'] the embryos' stem-cells are harvested.

 

The cell lines start with the destruction of blastocysts not transferred to the mother. These embryos are frozen and viable for years. HR 810 proposes federal funding for research operating on cell lines derived from blastocysts that have time to live and be adopted precisely because there's no law regulating how they are discarded. In fact, HR 810 specifically directs NIH to fund research using donated cell lines--that is the woman gets to determine whether a life she's not even carrying gets live or die.

 

I'll say this much. If we went out of our way to save these embryos, and in the end the only possible fate for them was deterioration in cryopreservation, I would have no problem seeing their destruction lead to some worthy purpose. I see no reason why we shouldn't at least offer these embryos the same dignity we offer the dying.

 

Rev Prez

[towjyt]

I'll say this much. If we went out of our way to save these embryos' date=' and in the end the only possible fate for them was deterioration in cryopreservation, I would have no problem seeing their destruction lead to some worthy purpose. Rev Prez[/quote']

 

Which is what is going to happen to them.

 

That is the point.

 

Since they are going to be distroyed as medical waste, doesn't that make the research a less tragic end for these embryos? At least they will do some good, it is even conceivable that an embryo might provide the breakthrough that saves it's brother's life.

[revprez]

Which is what is going to happen to them.

 

That is the point.

 

Since they are going to be distroyed as medical waste' date=' doesn't that make the research a less tragic end for these embryos?[/quote']

 

Not if it is at all reasonable to believe they can still be transferred and therefore saved. The principle applied in another way; I object to euthanasia but I consider it a moral obligation to donate organs. Presently, leftover embryos are destroyed despite the fact they can be preserved for a long time yet.

[Dak]

where do these embryos come from in the first place? are they artificial-incemination attempts, or aborts?

[towjyt]

Not if it is at all reasonable to believe they can still be transferred and therefore saved. The principle applied in another way; I object to euthanasia but I consider it a moral obligation to donate organs. Presently, leftover embryos are destroyed despite the fact they can be preserved for a long time yet.

 

As I understand it, these embryos are owned by their progentiors.

 

Do you think that they should be allowed to decide whether or not they are implanted, distroyed, or used for another purpose?

[revprez]

As I understand it, these embryos are owned by their progentiors.

 

Yes, under present law the embryo is not worthy of the same 13th Amendment protections as other Americans.

 

Do you think that they should be allowed to decide whether or not they are implanted, distroyed, or used for another purpose?

 

You know, if you just accept that principled pro-lifers attach the same personhood status to the embryo as they do to others, its pretty easy to figure out what we think parents should be able to do with their children--born or unborn--or what authority over the life and death of the dying we believe kin or other relevant parties should hold.

 

Rev Prez

[towjyt]

Yes' date=' under present law the embryo is not worthy of the same 13th Amendment protections as other Americans.

Rev Prez[/quote']

 

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to refer to them as "Americans?"

 

After all, they have not been born yet, and I think the Constitution refers to people either born in America, or born of American parents.

 

Also, since these embryos will be distroyed anyway, why not get some medicaly valuable information from them? It would seem to me that that would mitigate their deaths somewhat--no?

[revprez]

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to refer to them as "Americans?"

 

Personhood is an ethical status, and as I've stated before that's the real crux of the debate.

 

After all, they have not been born yet, and I think the Constitution refers to people either born in America, or born of American parents.

 

That's easy enough to check for yourself. The Constitution doesn't specify birth as a precondition for citizenship, although it does declare all persons born in the United States are citizens. It does require you to be a "natural born citizen" to hold the office of President, but then I don't know of any unborn children who've been gestating for 35 years. Either way, the 14th Amendment doesn't simply apply to citizens, and neither does the term American.

 

Also, since these embryos will be distroyed anyway, why not get some medicaly valuable information from them?

 

There is no law against doing so. The question is whether Americans should have to pay for murder, and there we have a republican process in place to determine whether Americans should be compelled to do something morally repugnant.

 

It would seem to me that that would mitigate their deaths somewhat--no?

 

No more than it would if we murdered the dying to harvest their organs. Once again, the opposition isn't objecting to using embryonic stem cells, but funding the process by which they are acquired. Pass law to amend that process to offer embryos the respect and dignity we give the dying, I'm sure you won't find much opposition if any to destroying them for medical research. Of course this brings us to the crux of the debate, whether the embryo is worthy of personhood status. And that is not a scientific question, but an ethical one.

 

Rev Prez

[towjyt]

Personhood is an ethical status' date=' and as I've stated before that's the real crux of the debate.

 

 

 

That's easy enough to check for yourself. The Constitution doesn't specify birth as a precondition for citizenship, although it does declare all persons born in the United States are citizens. It does require you to be a "natural born citizen" to hold the office of President, but then I don't know of any unborn children who've been gestating for 35 years. Either way, the 14th Amendment doesn't simply apply to citizens, and neither does the term American.

 

 

 

There is no law against doing so. The question is whether Americans should have to pay for murder, and there we have a republican process in place to determine whether Americans should be compelled to do something morally repugnant.

 

 

 

No more than it would if we murdered the dying to harvest their organs. Once again, the opposition isn't objecting to using embryonic stem cells, but funding the process by which they are acquired. Pass law to amend that process to offer embryos the respect and dignity we give the dying, I'm sure you won't find much opposition if any to destroying them for medical research. Of course this brings us to the crux of the debate, whether the embryo is worthy of personhood status. And that is not a scientific question, but an ethical one.

 

Rev Prez[/quote']

 

I find your position to be myopic and illogical.

[Pangloss]

I find your post to be pointless and pedantic.

[revprez]

I find your position to be myopic and illogical.

 

And...?

 

Rev Prez

[towjyt]

And...?

 

Rev Prez

 

And I frankly have better things to do that argue with an irrational person.

[revprez]

And I frankly have better things to do that argue with an irrational person.

 

Fair enough.

 

Rev Prez

[Nicholas]

They have found adult stem cells that have the same potential as embryonic.

 

You know God provides for everything!

[lan418]

Luckily, I think by this stage you must have run out of straw. I invoke Godwins Law[/url'], then close my mouth rapidly to avoid having a variety of connotations and assertions forcibly crammed into it.

 

Notice how rev prez did not reply to this post.

 

 

OWNED He |2 0 x0r y0r |3 0x 3rs.

 

Seriously, You're not getting far with your points. I tried to hold myself back as much as possible from replying so i dont "add more hay to the pile of subjective accusations of word connotations" but i got so annoyed i had to make this first and final post. Ok, i'm done venting.

[Alpha Q Up]

I support stem cell research, but only as a byproduct of my support for killing babies.

[donkey]

I support stem cell research, but only as a byproduct of my support for killing babies.

bwhahahahahah

[Alpha Q Up]

If we had rock solid evidence that hunting down, slaughtering and harvesting African Americans for their penis tissue today would save hundreds of millions of lives tomorrow, I sincerely doubt someone as sincerely progressive as yourself would be here shouting "castrate the niggers!"

Who cares about rock solid evidence, that's one of the best damn research ideas since murduring fetuses. You have my full support. I'd like to fund in the research of hunting down and cutting of the penises of slaves, er africans. And maybe even get in on the action myself.

CASTRATE THE NIGGERS!