The North Korea Problem

[iNow]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

there are reported worries regarding military coups, especially when he leaves the country.

This one for me has salience. It resonates. The risk of s a coup while KJU is out of country negotiating with other countries seems incredibly plausible and I can easily comprehend KJU taking active steps to avoid that. 

[CharonY]

On 5/25/2018 at 1:40 PM, iNow said:

This one for me has salience. It resonates. The risk of s a coup while KJU is out of country negotiating with other countries seems incredibly plausible and I can easily comprehend KJU taking active steps to avoid that. 

Yeah, maintaining an oppressive dictatorship is actually quite difficult. I would expect that many seemingly cruel and maniacal actions or seemingly stupid actions, are the result of focusing on maintaining power, rather than governance. Ten Oz is correct in saying that Kim is quite experienced in that (as evidenced by him not being dead yet).

 

Edit: so there is a surprise summit between NK and SK and apparently the US prep time is heading to Singapore. We are apparently in  Bizarro world. The US president bumbles through high-stakes diplomatic negotiations and KJU is the steady one. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by CharonY

[Ten oz]

On Sunday Trump further legitimized Kim Jung-un. It astonishes me that out right praise and subtle bribery towards a cruel "supreme leader" best known for killing his own people is treated so casually. When Trump was playing the tough guy talking about destroying North Korea his supporters applauded. Now that Trump is sucking up to Kim Jung-un his supporters are still applauding. 

Quote

 

"our United States team has arrived in North Korea to make arrangements for the Summit between Kim Jong Un and myself. I truly believe North Korea has brilliant potential and will be a great economic and financial Nation one day. Kim Jong Un agrees with me on this. It will happen!"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/05/29/north-korea-u-s-summit-talks-donald-trump-kim-jong-un/650428002/

 

 

[iNow]

35 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

When Trump was playing the tough guy talking about destroying North Korea his supporters applauded. Now that Trump is sucking up to Kim Jung-un his supporters are still applauding. 

It's almost as if his supports applaud no matter what he does and there is no provisionality nor conditionality to it.

[Ten oz]

42 minutes ago, iNow said:

It's almost as if his supports applaud no matter what he does and there is no provisionality nor conditionality to it.

Yep. It is very strange. The conservatives I know refuse to even stake out positions regarding what they think should or shouldn't happen seemingly to avoid contradiction if Trump selects something else. Trump himself oftens says "we'll see what happens" and that has become the mantra of his supporters. Nevermind what should happen or makes most sense. What will be will be, Trump will do Trump, and all that really seems to matter among conservatives is that crooked Hillary Clinton is not President. Sadly they fail to understand that what we (U.S.) does matters. We have conceded a seat at the table to Kim Jung-un. Such a move can not be reversed but a tweet or dismissive meme. It is good that our nation's are talking but Kim Jung-un is a murderer. What do we stand for anymore? 

[Ten oz]

Quote

 

But two administration officials tell NBC News the U.S. has decided not to bring up human rights at the summit. And Trump has made clear he would be willing to offer security guarantees and financial aid to Kim if he gives up his nuclear arsenal.

"This would be with Kim Jong Un something where ... he'd be running his country," Trump said last month. "If we make a deal, I think Kim Jong Un is going to be very, very happy."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/u-s-won-t-bring-north-korea-s-human-rights-n880986

 

Human Rights are off the table. 

[iNow]

BREAKING NEWS: Ahead of the summit in Singapore, KJU agrees to broker peace talks between the US and Canada!

[Ten oz]

Quote

 

Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump's announcement that the US will stop military exercises with South Korea startled Tokyo and Seoul, unsettled US lawmakers, and took at least some parts of the Pentagon by surprise.

The declaration -- one that goes to the heart of the security of US allies and the United States' western defense perimeter -- raised concerns that Trump had made a significant concession at his summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un without getting anything solid in return, particularly as he raised the prospect of pulling troops out of South Korea altogether.

 

The goal posts seem to have been moved. The Kim legacy in North Korea and their human rights and authoritarianism has always been part of tensions. In the last 2 decades Kim Jung-il and Jung-un pursued WMDs as a strategy to protect their own hold on power. By meeting with Kim and exclusively addressing the WMDs while ignoring all other concerns and making concessions without consulting our allies in the region rewards the strategy Kim Jung-il and Jung-un have implemented. By developing WMDs Jung-un earned himself a seat at the table and is no winning concessions without changing course on anything. Simply being willing to talk if progess enough. 

Why shouldn't Assad or Iran take this strategy? If having weapons earns you respect and one on one good faith diplomacy why make deals in advance. This is especially painful for Iran who made a deal with the U.S. not to develop nukes just to have the U.S. turn around half way through and demand a new deal. This lesson here for authoritarians around the world might be to get nukes first and then negotiate from a position of power. 

[DrP]

Quite - it's like having my racist dad in charge of the USA. He doesn't give a shit about the human rights breaches, he just wants to be seen as the first pres to 'make peace' with North Korea - even though the Republicans and Fox totally lambasted The last pres for even suggesting talks with NK.

No -one is falling for this obvious BS - except his blind worshipers of course who will say that he has done a wonderful job. .

Whatever he does he can't do wrong...  make peace without actually getting anything we want (like human rights improvement) and he will be praised for it....   blow the country to ash in a nuclear fire?...  yea, they'll praise him for that too and say Obama should have done it.  Throw the dice with your eyes closed Mr Pres...  whatever the result your following will spin it and claim you are a genius whatever the out come.

[StringJunky]

3 minutes ago, DrP said:

Quite - it's like having my racist dad in charge of the USA. He doesn't give a shit about the human rights breaches, he just wants to be seen as the first pres to 'make peace' with North Korea - even though the Republicans and Fox totally lambasted The last pres for even suggesting talks with NK.

No -one is falling for this obvious BS - except his blind worshipers of course who will say that he has done a wonderful job. .

Maybe he's just the serendipitous person for this particular job.

[Ten oz]

9 minutes ago, DrP said:

even though the Republicans and Fox totally lambasted The last pres for even suggesting talks with NK.

Right, some are acting as if Kim Jung-un took convincing to meet. Kim Jung-il was willing to meet Clinton and Bush. Likewise Jung-un was willing to meet Obama. A one on one weeing has always been available. It didn't take work to accept what has been there the whole time. It wasn't done before so avoid rewarding NK for bad behavior. This was something Democrats and Republicans both equally agreed with. 

[iNow]

20 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Maybe he's just the serendipitous person for this particular job.

Maybe:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1006701349910675457

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1006701349910675457/video/1

Well...Video didn’t render, but it’s worth a click. Hannity EVISCERATES Hannity.

Heres another about Fox News more broadly on the Korea issue, also worth a click.

https://nowthisnews.com/videos/politics/fox-news-different-reactions-regarding-negotiations-with-north-korea

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

Maybe:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1006701349910675457

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1006701349910675457/video/1

Being serendipitous doesn't mean 'by design'.

[iNow]

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Being serendipitous doesn't mean 'by design'.

Of course. I wasn't so much responding to you as much as I was using that comment as a jumping off point for the broader topic of our issues with propaganda and the narrative that only Trump could do this. It happened mostly because KJU finally successfully got nukes and due to heavy lifting from Moon Jae-in of South Korea and Shinzo Abe of Japan to ease tensions after all the rocketman talk. 

[StringJunky]

41 minutes ago, iNow said:

Of course. I wasn't so much responding to you as much as I was using that comment as a jumping off point for the broader topic of our issues with propaganda and the narrative that only Trump could do this. It happened mostly because KJU finally successfully got nukes and due to heavy lifting from Moon Jae-in of South Korea and Shinzo Abe of Japan to ease tensions after all the rocketman talk. 

Right.  Moon Jae-in gets the real credit in my book. The way I'm seeing it is that KJU inherited the state his country is in and I'm  tending to keep an open mind on his desire for friendlier relations rather than just looking totally into the past and forever holding him to it.  If you want to change history something has to give and you have to say "Well, let's give this a chance". I think people get too personal - there are well carved out paths already made that people, up to now, are forced to follow - and the fact is Trump is currently playing on the world stage... what will be will be.

Edited June 13, 2018 by StringJunky

[Phi for All]

It sounds like the meeting was a success because both sides get to claim things that aren't in the document they signed. Trump says denuclearization will happen quickly, Kim says it will be a careful, step-by-step process in conjunction with other concessions. 

Kim, of course, gets to claim that he removed the US/SK war games without giving up anything. I see nothing noteworthy about this agreement that wasn't in others, and the war games concession makes it a loss for the Trumpster. 

It's one thing to want peace, and to try and use unconventional means when nothing else has worked. But if this was really what Trump wanted, why antagonize current allies and relationships? This seems more about a fundamental shift towards aligning ourselves with the worst repressive regimes in the world instead of the most progressive. I'm leaning towards the stance of Guy Verhofstaft, the EU's Brexit rep. Tell us what Putin has on you, Don, and maybe we can help.

[MigL]

G W Bush axis of evil...
Iraq, Iran and North Korea.

D trump axis of evil...
Canada, Mexico and most of Europe.

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

G W Bush axis of evil...
Iraq, Iran and North Korea.

D trump axis of evil...
Canada, Mexico and most of Europe.

Lol... Yeah, I heard at the summit that KJU offered to broker peace talks btw the US and Canada.

On another note, if Canada does conquer the US, does that mean we finally get healthcare and good syrup?

I'm in town all week, folks... Don't forget to tip your server.

[Phi for All]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

G W Bush axis of evil...
Iraq, Iran and North Korea.

D trump axis of evil...
Canada, Mexico and most of Europe.

Both Russia and China have histories of heavily state-owned and managed institutions. Now both are crushing on private-ownership solutions (although China still maintains it's committed to a kind of socialism), which means funds that used to be controlled by the state are now in the hands of private individuals. Some Russian investors in a position to know claim Putin spent his first years in office robbing Russia blind, using knowledge gained from his KGB experience to make himself the richest man in the country. Where once a communist superpower held the reins, Russia is now controlled by billionaire oligarchs who switched from extremist Communists to extremist Capitalists.

Trump likes the all or nothing approach. He's a hammer carpenter, imo. Uses a hammer for everything, best thing for driving and pulling out nails. He's got a way to use his hammer to measure and cut boards, too, and he likes the way it works for screws, glue, and paint too. 

North Korea has the opportunity here to exploit capitalism to enrich the Kim dynasty and grow his working class like China has. Is it capitalism or communism if the State is a private individual? 

Wealthy, ruthless dictators are teaming up against Canada, Mexico, and most of Europe, and it seems like it's your publicly-owned institutions that really piss them off most. All your People-driven attitudes, and your insistence that profit shouldn't ALWAYS be the most important thing stand in the way of a few people's agenda to own everything.

[MigL]

Damn straight, iNow.
We'll conquer the US and burn the white House down again ( ? ).

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Wealthy, ruthless dictators are teaming up against Canada, Mexico, and most of Europe, and it seems like it's your publicly-owned institutions that really piss them off most. All your People-driven attitudes, and your insistence that profit shouldn't ALWAYS be the most important thing stand in the way of a few people's agenda to own everything.

It is the anti participation trophy attitude on steroids. Only winners deserves anything. Those who participate but fail to win can f-off. Govt has no business rewarding its participants with healthcare, education, infastructure and etc. Only winners deserve to get anything out of their govt.

Kim Jung-un is a winner. He is a wealthy authoritarian who dominates. Lots there for Trump to respect. 

[Ten oz]

Now Trump is casually joking around about the way KIm Jong-un viciously lords over his citizens.

Quote

 

Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump on Friday defended his warm praise of Kim Jong Un, saying his newfound affinity for the North Korean dictator was making Americans safer.

At the same time, Trump expressed esteem for the forced deference North Koreans show for their leader and joked he wished "my people" would do the same.

Asked why he's warmed to Kim, Trump insisted he was defusing a nuclear standoff.

"I don't want to see a nuclear weapon destroy you and your family," he told reporters during an impromptu question-and-answer session at the White House.

"I want to have a good relationship with North Korea. I want to have a good relationship with many other countries," Trump said. "We had great chemistry. He gave us a lot."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/15/politics/trump-north-korea-kim-jong-un/index.html

 

 

[Phi for All]

Kim has finally found the dupe he needed, thanks to Putin. Kim is savvy enough to know the instant he pushes his little red button is the end of his regime. There was NEVER any danger he'd launch, but as long as the threat was there, he had leverage. He finally found a gullible, half-assed businessman thinking about beachfront property instead of a political leader thinking about his country, and now he has the respect from a superpower nation his arsenal could never give him. 

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Kim has finally found the dupe he needed, thanks to Putin. Kim is savvy enough to know the instant he pushes his little red button is the end of his regime. There was NEVER any danger he'd launch, but as long as the threat was there, he had leverage. He finally found a gullible, half-assed businessman thinking about beachfront property instead of a political leader thinking about his country, and now he has the respect from a superpower nation his arsenal could never give him. 

The whole situation is just unbelievable. When Obama floated the idea of meeting with Kim Jung-un he was eviscerated by all political sides. Every foreign policy adviser both Democrat and Republican cautioned against meeting without clear concessions in place in advance. On the left moderates wondered out loud if Obama was just to green and inexperienced while on the right he was called totally incompetent. I bring that up not to point out the right contradicting itself but rather so highlight the fact that meeting Kim Jung-un was universally understood to be a bad idea. We rewarded Kim Jung-un for threatening his neighbors and the world. Now Trump is running around lavishing praise on Kim Jung-un calling him talented and applauding his ability to hold power at such a young age. You can't make this stuff up.

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

You can't make this stuff up.

When he openly embraces the leaders of countries our own intelligence communities have identified as hostile, who have very recently been involved in hijacking our electoral process to strike at the heart of our democracy, what else is he but a traitor? All the most outlandish things he's done have made us more vulnerable to sinister influences, and pushed away allies who might be able to help us. He has us defending the wrong borders, and embracing those who value us only for the power they can take from us.