Why are female chimps not selective about partners

[Alfred001]

I just heard on a podcast that female chimps will mate with anyone, unlike human females who are selective and mate across and up dominance hierarchies and have hidden ovulation.

 

Why is it that female chimps are not selective? I imagine gestation is long, like in humans and number of possible offspring limited, again, like in humans.

[iNow]

Citation needed

[StringJunky]

Citation needed

He heard on a podcast and wants to know if it's true; he's not asserting. Citation not needed.

[iNow]

He heard on a podcast and wants to know if it's true; he's not asserting. Citation not needed.

Sorry mate, but you're wrong here or misreading. The OP assumes the claim to be true and proceeds to request on speculations about cause.

 

I just heard on a podcast that female chimps will mate with anyone, <...>

Why is it that female chimps are not selective?

[StringJunky]

Sorry mate, but you're wrong here or misreading. The OP assumes the claim to be true and proceeds to request on speculations about cause.

 

True. The latter part didn't sink in.

[delboy]

Are you sure they weren't talking about bonobos ('pygmy chimpanzees'). They all mate with anyone and everyone just about all the time, for any reason. Interesting lifestyle.

[iNow]

It was chimps. About 97% sure the OP got this quote from Jordan Peterson who was on the Waking Up podcast with Sam Harris last week.

We still must validate the claim Peterson made before trying to explain an underlying why.

[StringJunky]

It was chimps. About 97% sure the OP got this quote from Jordan Peterson who was on the Waking Up podcast with Sam Harris last week.

We still must validate the claim Peterson made before trying to explain an underlying why.

 

 

Male coercion and the costs of promiscuous mating for female chimpanzees

Martin N Muller, Sonya M Kahlenberg, Melissa Emery Thompson, Richard W Wrangham

Abstract

For reasons that are not yet clear, male aggression against females occurs frequently among primates with promiscuous mating systems. Here, we test the sexual coercion hypothesis that male aggression functions to constrain female mate choice. We use 10 years of behavioural and endocrine data from a community of wild chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes schweinfurthii) to show that sexual coercion is the probable primary function of male aggression against females. Specifically, we show that male aggression is targeted towards the most fecund females, is associated with high male mating success and is costly for the victims. Such aggression can be viewed as a counter-strategy to female attempts at paternity confusion, and a cost of multi-male mating.

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1612/1009

 

 

REPRODUCTION

 

The majority of chimpanzee reproductive behavior is promiscuous, with females mating with multiple males opportunistically during estrus, though the majority of copulation occurs during the 10-day period of maximal tumescence (Goodall 1986). There are other types of reproductive strategies that are recognized as well. Restrictive mating, where the dominant male restricts other males from mating with estrous females in the community, consortship mating, where an adult pair leave the community for several days to weeks, and extra-group mating, where females leave their communities and mate furtively with males from nearby communities (Goodall 1986; Gagneux et al. 1999). Chimpanzee social and mating groups do not always overlap, given the variety of reproductive situations. This may have evolved because females have limited choice in mates after committing to a community, and the dominance hierarchy of males often dictates which males an estrous female will mate with. By having multiple strategies, females can expand the pool of males from which they choose while not losing the important support of the males in their communities (Gagneux et al. 1999). Having multiple strategies also maximizes the chances of males' reproductive success; they are able to vary, throughout their lives, their mating strategies with depending on their position in the dominance hierarchy.

 

http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/factsheets/entry/chimpanzee/behav

[swansont]

I just heard on a podcast that female chimps will mate with anyone, unlike human females who are selective and mate across and up dominance hierarchies and have hidden ovulation.

 

Why is it that female chimps are not selective? I imagine gestation is long, like in humans and number of possible offspring limited, again, like in humans.

I seem to recall reading that hidden ovulation being tied to more monogamous behavior, as the male has incentive to stick around, since he isn't sure when the female is fertile. Conversely, if the male isn't going to help with the rearing, and/or the female is only in estrus for a window of time, why limit yourself to one partner? The evolutionary goal is to get pregnant.

[iNow]

SJ - Being promiscuous <> will mate with anyone / are not selective

[StringJunky]

SJ - Being promiscuous <> will mate with anyone / are not selective

You've lost me.

[iNow]

Perhaps an example will help. One can be promiscuous, but ONLY have sex with red heads. One can be promiscuous, but only have sex with people who attended Oxford. The point being that promiscuity is often related to sexual selectivity (or lack thereof), but should not be conflated with it.

[mistermack]

Chimpanzees live in large-size troops, rather than the smaller family groups of Gorillas, or even smaller ones of humans.

The social relationships are complicated, and there's a lot of making of allies, as a form of protection.

Mating with lots of males can gain a female protection in the group, and it can be a form of insurance against falling out with one faction. And if several males view the offspring as their own, it helps with protection against bullying later.

 

Male Chimpanzees often get very jealous, and make extreme efforts to monopolise a female. His interests don't really match hers.

Chimps have huge testicles, compared to humans. That reflects on the females being relatively promiscuous. More sperm means you might be flushing out someone else's sperm, and makes it harder for them to flush out yours. So it looks like female chimps have been promiscuous for a long long time. It seems to work for them.

[Alfred001]

My good friend iNow makes a good point, is it that they are not selective or just promiscuous? I can't remember the exact quote any more, but I think it was that they are not selective, which is very odd. Does anyone know which it is?

 

Chimpanzees live in large-size troops, rather than the smaller family groups of Gorillas, or even smaller ones of humans.

The social relationships are complicated, and there's a lot of making of allies, as a form of protection.

Mating with lots of males can gain a female protection in the group, and it can be a form of insurance against falling out with one faction. And if several males view the offspring as their own, it helps with protection against bullying later.

 

Nah, I don't buy this explanation.

 

If they are so slutty, what do they need protection for?

 

And bullying is not life-threatening, its normal social dynamics.

[iNow]

My good friend iNow makes a good point, is it that they are not selective or just promiscuous? I can't remember the exact quote any more, but I think it was that they are not selective, which is very odd.

Here's your exact quote starting at timepoint 18:10 and lasting for approximately 1m40s:

 

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/meaning-and-chaos

[mistermack]

If they are so slutty, what do they need protection for?

 

And bullying is not life-threatening, its normal social dynamics.

In your sheltered world, maybe. In chimp society, if you are at the bottom of the pile, you are last to eat. Which is life-threatening in scarce times.

And chimps are very violent. There are no police to protect you. In the jungle, just one bite can get infected and kill you.

You need friends to survive in chimp society.

[John Cuthber]

I suspect that a large part of the answer is that male chimps are bigger + stronger than females.

[mistermack]

I suspect that a large part of the answer is that male chimps are bigger + stronger than females.

I believe that they are about twice the weight of a female, compared to about ten percent more in humans.

Also, male chimps have hugely enlarged canines, which females don't have.

 

[Alfred001]

I suspect that a large part of the answer is that male chimps are bigger + stronger than females.

 

The person said that they are promiscuous, not that they get raped a lot. If you were implying that they get attacked (non-sexually) by the males, I'm not sure males attack females much, why would that happen (but I don't know)?

In your sheltered world, maybe. In chimp society, if you are at the bottom of the pile, you are last to eat. Which is life-threatening in scarce times.

And chimps are very violent. There are no police to protect you. In the jungle, just one bite can get infected and kill you.

You need friends to survive in chimp society.

 

But do males bully females?

Edited May 1, 2017 by Alfred001

[mistermack]

 

The person said that they are promiscuous, not that they get raped a lot. If you were implying that they get attacked (non-sexually) by the males, I'm not sure males attack females much, why would that happen (but I don't know)?

 

But do males bully females?

I recommend that you read up on Chimp behaviour. It's extremely complicated, and words like bully don't really apply in the same way. They have a dominance structure, and in that, you give way to some, and dominate others. But it's not simple. Just as human relationships are not simple.

At the top though, there is usually an alpha male who dominates not just by fighting ability, but by political means, enlisting allies and commanding loyalty.

And females present their hindquarters to dominant males, as a gesture of submission. You can't call it rape, in the human sense.