Belief and science

[swansont]

 

It's clear that nothing produces nothing.. How can nothing without any properties aside from it's nothingness produce something...?

 

Imagine inside an eternal empty box. We all know that eternally it is empty because nothingness inside the box can't create anything.. That's very clear isn't it?

We are divided by our worldviews but it is also important that we know the truth.

 

 

"It's clear that..." is weak tea.

[Strange]

 

Then why this is the type of physical laws we have and not the other way around?

 

 

Who knows.

 

But not knowing is not evidence for your god.

[Randolpin]

 

 

Well, that is very sweet. But that is what people of other religions say as well. You can't all be right.

 

No you can't because you would need more information is available (see chaos theory). And, ultimately, the behaviour would depend on quantum events which are random.

 

 

"If only", because there are available factors that we use to predict if we use some hitech devices..

[Strange]

BTW, I should add: I don't care what you believe or what you think your God did. Just don't try and pretend it is science.

[Raider5678]

 

Then why this is the type of physical laws we have and not the other way around? It could be also from other physical laws and this "other physical laws" from other physical laws and so on and so forth, until we have an infinite regression?

Here, let me try and explain this logic.

 

Imagine sending up 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000(300 Decillion) balloons filled with helium. And the first one to pop was recorded.

And then everyone started running in circles shouting "Why this one??? It must have been chosen by a higher power for a reason!"

 

 

And remember. I'm a Christian just as you are. I'm arguing that what you're saying isn't science. Not against your religion.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Raider5678

[Itoero]

How can it be? Newton's theory of gravitation is completely different from Einstein's and yet they are both accepted by science. Neither is "true" in any real sense. They are both just good models.

 

"Even though science is often characterized as such, we do not describe it as a search for truth.[/size]"

http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/truth

 

 

Hypotheses are not beliefs (unless you are totally changing the meaning of belief).

 

Things do not "become" science. Science is a method for testing ideas.

This is semantics. Science is a never ending search towards ultimate reality or truth in the sense that models in science are always open to be disproven or improven. Science constantly evolves.

[Strange]

This is semantics. Science is a never ending search towards ultimate reality or truth in the sense that models in science are always open to be disproven or improven. Science constantly evolves.

 

 

But they are just descriptive models, not reality or truth. How can they be "truth" if they can always be disproved?

[Itoero]

But they are just descriptive models, not reality or truth. How can they be "truth" if they can always be disproved?

A model gives info concerning truth in its reality...not about ultimate truth/reality.

That's why I call science a search towards that ultimate reality/truth.

 

I use the term 'Ultimate' to make a distinction and to show that the truth/reality you get from a model is never 100% proven and open for change.

 

Science in a sense evolves by turning beliefs into hypotheses or theories...it depends what definition you use.

 

I of course have no evidence for this and I know it's more complicated then the way I describe it.

 

-When G T Hooft came up with the Holographic principle then he had first many idea's in his head (beliefs) concerning a deterministic universe which he then wrote down into a hypothesis.

 

-Everything Einstein came up with, were first beliefs...in his big head.

 

-Many scientists are developing a therapy to treat diseases. I don't think scientists would spend time developing a therapy if they don't believe it will work.

[Strange]

A model gives info concerning truth in its reality...not about ultimate truth/reality.

That's why I call science a search towards that ultimate reality/truth.

 

I use the term 'Ultimate' to make a distinction and to show that the truth/reality you get from a model is never 100% proven and open for change.

 

As science is all about models, and these can never be 100% accurate nor 100% proven, then science cannot be a search for "ultimate truth" by your own definitions.

 

 

 

 

Science in a sense evolves by turning beliefs into hypotheses or theories...it depends what definition you use.

 

No, it proceeds by turning observations into hypotheses and hypotheses into theories.

 

 

 

 

-When G T Hooft came up with the Holographic principle then he had first many idea's in his head (beliefs) concerning a deterministic universe which he then wrote down into a hypothesis.

 

-Everything Einstein came up with, were first beliefs...in his big head.

 

-Many scientists are developing a therapy to treat diseases. I don't think scientists would spend time developing a therapy if they don't believe it will work.

 

It seems you are using "belief" in the sense of "an idea based on knowledge and evidence". That is not what I think the word means.

 

If you use words in unexpected ways you will, inevitably, get people disagreeing with you.

[Randolpin]

Nature Evidences:

 

The Biblical flood is true.. When you go to the mountains and some mountains have small lakes and you wonder why there are fishes in the lakes on the mountain?, how it arrived there ? It seems to me that the biblical flood is true because the lakes are ones big holes but because of the the global flood the holes are filled with water and fishes..

 

 

 

 

And why do you think you know the truth? Perhaps your religion is wrong, but some other religious creation myth is correct.

 

 

Because of it's consistencies compared to other religion..

Edited March 27, 2017 by Randolpin

[dimreepr]

The Biblical flood is true..

 

Where did all the water go?

 

Did god suck it up and piss on mars when it's rant was over?

[Randolpin]

 

Where did all the water go?

 

Did god suck it up and piss on mars when it's rant was over?

 

 

We should not take it base on our own understanding...

I am not familiar about the verse that talk about the flood...

I can only say as of now that God is great, He can do everything that surpass our understanding...

[Strange]

Nature Evidences:

 

The Biblical flood is true.. When you go to the mountains and some mountains have small lakes and you wonder why there are fishes in the lakes on the mountain?, how it arrived there ? It seems to me that the biblical flood is true because the lakes are ones big holes but because of the the global flood the holes are filled with water and fishes..

 

 

I don't think your ignorance of nature is evidence for god.

I am not familiar about the verse that talk about the flood...

 

 

Why do you believe it is true, then? Bizarre.

 

I can only say as of now that God is great, He can do everything that surpass our understanding...

 

Your understanding, maybe.

[Randolpin]

 

 

I don't think your ignorance of nature is evidence for god.

 

 

Why do you believe it is true, then? Bizarre.

 

Your understanding, maybe.

 

 

I will familiarized that verse and try my best to impart it to you.. You can also read it somewhere in Genesis..

I will offer some verses that proves the bible to be authentic: From: www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml

 

Scientific Facts in the Bible

1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).

4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).

5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."

8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).

9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."

14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence." (11:3 continued)

Edited March 27, 2017 by Randolpin

[swansont]

A model gives info concerning truth in its reality...not about ultimate truth/reality.

That's why I call science a search towards that ultimate reality/truth.

 

 

 

There are many aspects of physics that are acknowledged as abstractions, and also that we can't possibly know what's "actually" going on. We've had a number of threads discussing this.

[Randolpin]

Science searches the truth.. In my thread about the goal of science, it states that we develop and enhance our view of the world until we view the complete picture of reality.. We try to develop our view on reality into it's ultimate picture.. For example about gravity.From Newtonian view developed into more sophisticated Einsteinean view..

Science searches the truth if we learn to connect new ideas and discoveries properly and comprehend it properly..

[swansont]

Science searches the truth.. In my thread about the goal of science, it states that we develop and enhance our view of the world until we view the complete picture of reality.. We try to develop our view on reality into it's ultimate picture.. For example about gravity.From Newtonian view developed into more sophisticated Einsteinean view..

Science searches the truth if we learn to connect new ideas and discoveries properly and comprehend it properly..

 

 

Saying it doesn't make it true.

[Strange]

I will familiarized that verse and try my best to impart it to you.. You can also read it somewhere in Genesis..

 

 

I have read it. It is obviously myth. Copied from an earlier Babylonian story (the Epic of Gilgamesh).

 

 

 

I will offer some verses that proves the bible to be authentic:

 

I will leave others to debunk those (they have all come here before).

 

I will just ask: if these really were clear statements of fact (rather than interpretations added after the facts were discovered) then why did it take people so long to discover them, independently of the bible?

 

And if your god wanted people to have this information, why didn't she state it more clearly? Why didn't she explicitly say that everything is made of atoms (and atoms of protons and electrons)? Where does she explain dark matter?

Science searches the truth.. In my thread about the goal of science, it states that we develop and enhance our view of the world until we view the complete picture of reality.. We try to develop our view on reality into it's ultimate picture.. For example about gravity.From Newtonian view developed into more sophisticated Einsteinean view..

Science searches the truth if we learn to connect new ideas and discoveries properly and comprehend it properly..

 

This is not true.

[OldChemE]

Way back in the early stages of this discussion there was the implied statement that if God does not exist there is no purpose in life-- or something like that. Without evidence I offer the following thoughts:

 

Of all the inhabitants of earth, only mankind seems to possess the intelligence to be religious. I believe this is because religion requires beings of sufficient intelligence to be dissatisfied with the limitations of life, to wish for something better, and to be able to visualize what that better something might be. When viewed with this perspective, I believe the history of religion makes sense.

 

Early man was essentially powerless in nature. He could hunt and forage for food, build shelter and care for a family, but he and his family were largely at the mercy of the natural elements. Having the intelligence to be dissatisfied with this situation, man began to wish for something better and to visualize beings who had power over the elements and did not have human limitations. This is the origin of Gods. Thus, early gods tended to reflect the needs of mankind: Gods of the hunt, the harvest, and of all things good in life.

 

As mankind grew and developed into larger tribes and had territorial conflicts, the Gods of battle and war emerged-- because a warrior who could win was what mankind needed.

 

As man recognized the limitations if death and yearned for more life, gods became immortal.

 

When civilizations developed and mankind had a better lot in life, such as early Grecian and Roman societies, mankind yearned for pleasures that the moral standards of society tended to limit, and the immortal gods emerged that had to power to have limitless love affairs and debauchery.

 

In simple terms, our Gods have always tended to represent the things we wish we could have in life but cannot always have due to our human limitations.

 

As civilizations progressed, however, God became more sophisticated. At this point I could discuss more than one religion, but I will focus only on the God of the Hebrews and the development of the Christian religion.

 

As civilization progressed and human knowledge expanded, certain very intelligent humans began to realize that what they really wanted in life was to live a full and happy life within their own families and societies. This led to dissatisfaction with the baseness of pagan gods. Gods of sex, war and debauchery were not the answer. Thus, philosophers or religious writers began to develop a vision of a God that represented all that was best in life. A Moral God. A similar trend occurred elsewhere, producing Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other modern religions.

 

This new development of a Moral God had one problem: not all mankind has the intelligence or inclination to accept a moral code on face value. Just as children must be disciplined in order to teach them proper moral behavior, there are many members of society who never outgrow the need for the discipline of an elder. Some people simply do not want to be moral.

 

For early societies, such as Israel, this led to a situation where the founders of the religion could not simply appeal to higher instincts of their people, they needed to keep God as a physical person, just like the earlier gods. Thus, although the Christian God (among others) represents a moral ideal of proper behavior, the Church still needs to have God be a physical person who will punish those who misbehave.

 

This is why we have problems in modern society with religion not reaching all the people. In our modern society with all our forms of communication and broad education, it has become obvious that God does not punish the bad elements of society (hence the modern pre-occupation with the question of whether or not God is dead).

 

God is not dead-- God was never alive in a physical sense. The problem is that only portions of mankind have the intelligence or will to recognize that the moral teachings of religion are important to living life properly. The rest will only obey God when God appears to them and punishes them. Since God is not a physical being, that isn't happening and isn't going to happen.

 

So, if you are looking for moral purpose in life, religion is one answer-- but not the only answer.

[Randolpin]

Way back in the early stages of this discussion there was the implied statement that if God does not exist there is no purpose in life-- or something like that. Without evidence I offer the following thoughts:

 

Of all the inhabitants of earth, only mankind seems to possess the intelligence to be religious. I believe this is because religion requires beings of sufficient intelligence to be dissatisfied with the limitations of life, to wish for something better, and to be able to visualize what that better something might be. When viewed with this perspective, I believe the history of religion makes sense.

 

Early man was essentially powerless in nature. He could hunt and forage for food, build shelter and care for a family, but he and his family were largely at the mercy of the natural elements. Having the intelligence to be dissatisfied with this situation, man began to wish for something better and to visualize beings who had power over the elements and did not have human limitations. This is the origin of Gods. Thus, early gods tended to reflect the needs of mankind: Gods of the hunt, the harvest, and of all things good in life.

 

As mankind grew and developed into larger tribes and had territorial conflicts, the Gods of battle and war emerged-- because a warrior who could win was what mankind needed.

 

As man recognized the limitations if death and yearned for more life, gods became immortal.

 

When civilizations developed and mankind had a better lot in life, such as early Grecian and Roman societies, mankind yearned for pleasures that the moral standards of society tended to limit, and the immortal gods emerged that had to power to have limitless love affairs and debauchery.

 

In simple terms, our Gods have always tended to represent the things we wish we could have in life but cannot always have due to our human limitations.

 

As civilizations progressed, however, God became more sophisticated. At this point I could discuss more than one religion, but I will focus only on the God of the Hebrews and the development of the Christian religion.

 

As civilization progressed and human knowledge expanded, certain very intelligent humans began to realize that what they really wanted in life was to live a full and happy life within their own families and societies. This led to dissatisfaction with the baseness of pagan gods. Gods of sex, war and debauchery were not the answer. Thus, philosophers or religious writers began to develop a vision of a God that represented all that was best in life. A Moral God. A similar trend occurred elsewhere, producing Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other modern religions.

 

This new development of a Moral God had one problem: not all mankind has the intelligence or inclination to accept a moral code on face value. Just as children must be disciplined in order to teach them proper moral behavior, there are many members of society who never outgrow the need for the discipline of an elder. Some people simply do not want to be moral.

 

For early societies, such as Israel, this led to a situation where the founders of the religion could not simply appeal to higher instincts of their people, they needed to keep God as a physical person, just like the earlier gods. Thus, although the Christian God (among others) represents a moral ideal of proper behavior, the Church still needs to have God be a physical person who will punish those who misbehave.

 

This is why we have problems in modern society with religion not reaching all the people. In our modern society with all our forms of communication and broad education, it has become obvious that God does not punish the bad elements of society (hence the modern pre-occupation with the question of whether or not God is dead).

 

God is not dead-- God was never alive in a physical sense. The problem is that only portions of mankind have the intelligence or will to recognize that the moral teachings of religion are important to living life properly. The rest will only obey God when God appears to them and punishes them. Since God is not a physical being, that isn't happening and isn't going to happen.

 

So, if you are looking for moral purpose in life, religion is one answer-- but not the only answer.

 

These are all man-made gods that is as what you said, to satisfy human desires which is human-centered. Our God hate these man-made religions because they only centered to feed the desires of humans. God really want's us to focus on Him and not for our own benefit..

Edited March 28, 2017 by Randolpin

[Phi for All]

These are all man-made gods that is as what you said, to satisfy human desires which is human-centered. Our God hate these man-made religions because they only centered to feed the desires of humans. God really want's us to focus on Him and not for our own benefit..

 

!

Moderator Note

It's obvious that there's no more science to be had in this discussion, and the preaching has taken over. Thread closed.