Did our ancestors commit suicides?

[ModernArtist25]

Did our caveman ancestors commit suicide or where they just happier than we are now? since suicide rates are on the rise

[CharonY]

This is far to much of a sweeping generalization. Obviously today's suicide rate vary massively by society and each has a different historic trajectory. Are you e.g. referring to the increase in the USA? Well, in Canada it is dropping or on a plateau. The rate in Switzerland is higher than in the US, but is actually dropping since the 80s. Given the vast differences even in recent history makes any speculations to prehistoric times rather moot (not to mention that obviously you will not find any data).

[NimrodTheGoat]

I am speculating. Here is what roughly went through my mind.

 

{

suicide: killing yourself

 

why? to get away

from? life/ problems

why? stressful and/or hated by others, pushed by others

 

but why? we are social animals we have our duties to fulfill in life, to help others, to be accepted by others, if we fail at this we are sad. it can get pretty bad.

 

but why does this push us to commit suicide? ....

 

can we see patterns in other primates with similar social structures? if yes, then it is likely that our early ancestors did so too, not on mass scales but its there and undeniable.

 

conclusion: yes, but this is speculation based on raw basic psychological knowledge with prototype thoughts/ little to no evidence, but with enough reasearch and pondering, maybe this can be supported and stated as a true fact

 

}

 

I do beleive that suicide rates are on the rise although very slightly and worldwide.

[ModernArtist25]

CharonY, why can't we find data? Shouldn't technology be advanced enough to find out how our ancestors got killed? Or maybe not

..

NimrodtheGoat, could it be possible that our ancestors didn't have time to think about killing themselves because they were too busy killing others to protect their resources or land?

[CharonY]

Simple. with "cavemen" you probably mean prehistoric time frames. For that, we do not have any records of a) how many people lived nor b) how they died. If lucky, we may find a handful of preserved bones, but that would not tell us much as obviously those finds would not be representative of the population. Considering that suicides are relatively rare events (in the US it is about a dozen per 100k) finding even one instant of likely suicide would be like winning the lottery. Also, considering the low population density, each suicide could skew statistics quite a lot. Which does not really matter, as we cannot get the info in the first place.

 

Realistically, we only have records to infer actual rates for modern history (and not even for every country). Anything beyond that, it gets really sketchy.

 

And again, even the premise that the rate is rising is poorly framed.

[NimrodTheGoat]

CharonY, why can't we find data? Shouldn't technology be advanced enough to find out how our ancestors got killed? Or maybe not

..

NimrodtheGoat, could it be possible that our ancestors didn't have time to think about killing themselves because they were too busy killing others to protect their resources or land?

they werent killing others 24/7 or finding food for 24/7 ( that is if they had enough for the time being)

 

 

your point arises another consideration, could it be possible that suicide grew after the rise of agriculturization?

[ModernArtist25]

I've seen articles stating that cavemen didn't have heart disease or cancer, or other diseases people have now...how were people able to find that out? Is there actual evidence from preserved bones or something else??

 

 

your point arises another consideration, could it be possible that suicide grew after the rise of agriculturization?

Hmm...I would say after the rise of technology and computers, we maybe electronically connected but emotionally disconnected

[CharonY]

Can you link to the articles? It is very unlikely that we have actual representative data as tissue is generally not that well preserved, as you mentioned. In fact, Otzi (3300 BCE) was an important exception as he got frozen. Of course, it is insufficient to generalize from one find, but they found ample evidence of arterial disease and dental issues.

 

That being said, what could have been meant is that they were very unlikely to die of diseases that are age-associated. A large proportion of the population is likely to die way before they can succumb to cancer, for example. Though even if they did, it is would be difficult to find out.

Edited March 31, 2017 by CharonY

[ModernArtist25]

Not so sure how credible these are but here are some articles about our ancestors and "modern" diseases:

 

http://shanghai.ufh.com.cn/4423/health-information/articles/what-our-ancestors-can-teach-us-about-preventing-cardiovascular-disease

 

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/326/5959/1478.full?ijkey=T4z4LKoVg016U&keytype=ref&siteid=sci

 

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/558667/Caveman-diet-slash-risk-heart-disease

[Sensei]

Did our caveman ancestors commit suicide or where they just happier than we are now? since suicide rates are on the rise

 

There are known examples of committing suicide by animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_suicide

[Acme]

Did our caveman ancestors commit suicide or where they just happier than we are now? since suicide rates are on the rise

While not 'caveman' perhaps, Native Americans committed suicide using various poisons according to David E. Jones writing in Poison Arrows: North American Hunting and Warfare. He says on pg. 6 that the reason for suicide "usually stemmed from a broken heart".

 

He cites an early record by Father Sagard who worked among the Huron in the 1630s, and noted that the tribe used Cicuta masculata - Spotted Water Hemlock to commit suicide. The plant was known as "suicide root".

Edited April 1, 2017 by Acme

[Velocity_Boy]

Did our caveman ancestors commit suicide or where they just happier than we are now? since suicide rates are on the rise

 

What do you mean by Cave man?

 

That is not an accepted anthropological term.

 

Are you speaking of the homo genus? Habilus? Erectus? Early sapiens? Neanderthals?

 

Or are we going back some 4 Mya to a. Afarensis? There have been over twenty subspecies of genus homo. However, there would be every reason to think that suicide rates would escalate as the human brain, and in turn, it's software we call the mind, evolved. This, since its attendant emotions evolved with it. That is, the sheer number and complexity of these emotions, or affects. States of mind. Included here is of course fear and anxiety and hopelessness and depression. Al those being not uncommon precursors to suicide attempts or ideations.

[CharonY]

Not so sure how credible these are but here are some articles about our ancestors and "modern" diseases:

 

http://shanghai.ufh.com.cn/4423/health-information/articles/what-our-ancestors-can-teach-us-about-preventing-cardiovascular-disease

 

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/326/5959/1478.full?ijkey=T4z4LKoVg016U&keytype=ref&siteid=sci

 

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/558667/Caveman-diet-slash-risk-heart-disease

 

Actually, the claim is more that modern lifestyle and diet is detrimental to health. However, it does not mean that paleolithic humans were actually healthier. Starvation is one big killer, for example. We obviously do not know the cancer rate in those populations, but what we do know is that, on average they died early enough so that it is not a contributing factor. Likewise, cadiovascular diseaes are a conjecture, though it is somewhat reasonable to assume that the rate nowadays is at younger age. But again, if they die early enough CVD would not be a big issue. Likewise one could argue that there were less people with diabetes. Mostly because they would die pretty young.

[ModernArtist25]

There are known examples of committing suicide by animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_suicide

It says that there were cases when dogs kill themselves by starving to death after their owners died. But were the dogs aware that by not eating, they will die?

[ModernArtist25]

 

Are you speaking of the homo genus? Habilus? Erectus? Early sapiens? Neanderthals?

 

Or are we going back some 4 Mya to a. Afarensis? There have been over twenty subspecies of genus homo. However, there would be every reason to think that suicide rates would escalate as the human brain, and in turn, it's software we call the mind, evolved. This, since its attendant emotions evolved with it. That is, the sheer number and complexity of these emotions, or affects. States of mind. Included here is of course fear and anxiety and hopelessness and depression. Al those being not uncommon precursors to suicide attempts or ideations.

Cro-magnons I meant...when you sat evolved, do you believe that since humans got smarter, we began commiting suicide?

[John Cuthber]

CharonY, why can't we find data? Shouldn't technology be advanced enough to find out how our ancestors got killed? Or maybe not

..

It can be fairly difficult, even today , to find out if someone's death was accidental, homicide or suicide.

[DrKrettin]

There is plenty of secure evidence from Ancient Greece that suicide was quite normal in that society (e.g. Socrates etc.). It was considered preferable to an old age of pain with no pain relief, and I guess being a burden to the family was also a consideration. But I suppose this is much later than the time period in question here.

[Delta1212]

It can be fairly difficult, even today , to find out if someone's death was accidental, homicide or suicide.

Just look for the suicide stele.

[Velocity_Boy]

A thought that ties in with my idea on all this from my first post.........It is a known fact that more primitive societies don't have anywhere near the suicide rate us first world countries do.

 

Given this.....It stands to reason that people's with less evolved and complex minds and living in simpler conditions such as Cro Magnon, or any ancestral bipedal humanoid primates, would also not trend to commit suicide as often as do we modern homo sapien sapiens.

[CharonY]

A thought that ties in with my idea on all this from my first post.........It is a known fact that more primitive societies don't have anywhere near the suicide rate us first world countries do.

 

Given this.....It stands to reason that people's with less evolved and complex minds and living in simpler conditions such as Cro Magnon, or any ancestral bipedal humanoid primates, would also not trend to commit suicide as often as do we modern homo sapien sapiens.

 

A) What precisely defines a primitive society and what is the source of these facts?

B) What is the difference between a less evolved mind and how does it relate to A)?

[Delta1212]

A thought that ties in with my idea on all this from my first post.........It is a known fact that more primitive societies don't have anywhere near the suicide rate us first world countries do.

 

Given this.....It stands to reason that people's with less evolved and complex minds and living in simpler conditions such as Cro Magnon, or any ancestral bipedal humanoid primates, would also not trend to commit suicide as often as do we modern homo sapien sapiens.

You think people living in non-industrial societies have less complex minds?

[HB of CJ]

Yep ... a very general question. Specific definition of terms difficult. Some very early primitive societies may have had various types of suicide, assisted or otherwise. Extremely harsh environments may have dictated harsh solutions. Early man was successful because of greatly favorable environmental conditions. Future mankind may not have things so great. Time will tell.

[No Solid Ground]

There is plenty of secure evidence from Ancient Greece that suicide was quite normal in that society (e.g. Socrates etc.). It was considered preferable to an old age of pain with no pain relief, and I guess being a burden to the family was also a consideration. But I suppose this is much later than the time period in question here.

In premodern Japan, elders would decide when it was time for a younger family member to take them to a forest or up a mountain and leave them there to die in meditation.