MattMVS7 Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) If I believed in an eternal blissful afterlife, then that would be no different than a situation where I am all optimistic, happy, and loving towards myself and others knowing that I and everyone else are all going to get rich, get whatever we want, and have all the fancy thing we want. But upon discovering that this is not the case (discovering that an eternal blissful afterlife does not exist), then that would be no different than a situation where I give up on the whole concept of loving myself and loving others and where I would think it would be better off if we all just rotted and decayed away since all we are is poor trash and we don't all get to be the rich and wealthy individuals of our dreams. I see the same things applying here as well. In other words, I see no value in human beings including myself and I would think it would be better off if we all just never existed in the first place since that is all we are anyway. We are all just biological material bound to rot and decay which no longer gives us human value (a superior value of dignity), but instead an inferior value that is nothing more than that of the type of value that mere transient materialistic things have that are bound to rot, decay, and break down such as a car, a bicycle, etc. It is our destiny and it is where we are all heading anyway. If all we are is biological beings here for a short while just to rot and decay away and we are not the eternal divine blissful beings that new age spiritual traditions make us out to be, then that, to me, takes away all human value and instead replaces it with the inferior value that mere transient materialistic things have. Edited April 13, 2017 by MattMVS7
Phi for All Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 If I believed in an eternal blissful afterlife, then that would be no different than a situation where I am all optimistic, happy, and loving towards myself and others knowing that I and everyone else are all going to get rich, get whatever we want, and have all the fancy thing we want. But upon discovering that this is not the case (discovering that an eternal blissful afterlife does not exist), then that would be no different than a situation where I give up on the whole concept of loving myself and loving others and where I would think it would be better off if we all just rotted and decayed away since all we are is poor trash and we don't all get to be the rich and wealthy individuals of our dreams. I see the same things applying here as well. In other words, I see no value in human beings including myself and I would think it would be better off if we all just never existed in the first place since that is all we are anyway. We are all just biological material bound to rot and decay which no longer gives us human value (a superior value of dignity), but instead an inferior value that is nothing more than that of the type of value that mere transient materialistic things have that are bound to rot, decay, and break down such as a car, a bicycle, etc. It is our destiny and it is where we are all heading anyway. Everything humanity has accomplished in its short time on Earth has been without the direct influence of an afterlife. Many religions don't have a concept of an afterlife either. Why is a hundred years or so of life meaningless? What makes you say that, given all the things mankind has discovered in its evolution of intelligence? Why does life have to be eternal to have meaning or value? What if your religion is wrong, and the meaning of life is to create a species capable of leaving its homeworld? 1
MattMVS7 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Posted April 13, 2017 Everything humanity has accomplished in its short time on Earth has been without the direct influence of an afterlife. Many religions don't have a concept of an afterlife either. Why is a hundred years or so of life meaningless? What makes you say that, given all the things mankind has discovered in its evolution of intelligence? Why does life have to be eternal to have meaning or value? What if your religion is wrong, and the meaning of life is to create a species capable of leaving its homeworld? I understand what you are saying here and I respect your view, however, for me it is different. If all we are is biological beings here for a short while just to rot and decay away and we are not the eternal divine blissful beings that new age spiritual traditions make us out to be, then that, to me, takes away all human value and instead replaces it with the inferior value that mere transient materialistic things have.
Prometheus Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 I understand what you are saying here and I respect your view, however, for me it is different. If all we are is biological beings here for a short while just to rot and decay away and we are not the eternal divine blissful beings that new age spiritual traditions make us out to be, then that, to me, takes away all human value and instead replaces it with the inferior value that mere transient materialistic things have. That's the value you choose to attach to our situation. Others choose differently. There isn't a 'right' answer. 1
StringJunky Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 I understand what you are saying here and I respect your view, however, for me it is different. If all we are is biological beings here for a short while just to rot and decay away and we are not the eternal divine blissful beings that new age spiritual traditions make us out to be, then that, to me, takes away all human value and instead replaces it with the inferior value that mere transient materialistic things have. Everything you do makes waves or signals and influences those around you in some small way, passing through them into the future.The obvious ones are the works of famous people but this happens in small ways too that are not obviously on the surface of peoples awareness. 1
Phi for All Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 I understand what you are saying here and I respect your view, however, for me it is different. If all we are is biological beings here for a short while just to rot and decay away and we are not the eternal divine blissful beings that new age spiritual traditions make us out to be, then that, to me, takes away all human value and instead replaces it with the inferior value that mere transient materialistic things have. This really did bring a tear to my eye. I don't know what to say. I love this planet, I love the creatures on it, including humans. I see myself as a caretaker, part of a species that gave up claws and fur for greater intelligence, and are striving to figure out how best to utilize the improvements our intelligence is capable of bringing about. We get a longer life than many creatures, and we're smart enough to figure out ways to extend that even more. I'm content that I'm having my impact on this life in a positive, nurturing, beneficial way, and I'm striving to correct what seems destructive to me. And I think I feel this way in large part because I know I won't be here forever. 4
dimreepr Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) If all we are is biological beings here for a short while just to rot and decay away and we are not the eternal divine blissful beings that new age spiritual traditions make us out to be, then that, to me, takes away all human value and instead replaces it with the inferior value that mere transient materialistic things have. If you live in the moment and extract every ounce of bliss available in that moment, the next moment doesn't matter and being dead just means extraction isn't possible. Edited April 13, 2017 by dimreepr
MattMVS7 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Posted April 13, 2017 This really did bring a tear to my eye. I don't know what to say. I love this planet, I love the creatures on it, including humans. I see myself as a caretaker, part of a species that gave up claws and fur for greater intelligence, and are striving to figure out how best to utilize the improvements our intelligence is capable of bringing about. We get a longer life than many creatures, and we're smart enough to figure out ways to extend that even more. I'm content that I'm having my impact on this life in a positive, nurturing, beneficial way, and I'm striving to correct what seems destructive to me. And I think I feel this way in large part because I know I won't be here forever. To me, this being the only life and us being mere biological beings just bound to rot and decay makes this life and all of humanity seem so shallow to me. It just says to me: "Welp, that's just life for you. We are here, we live, we die, we suffer, and that is it. Life's a bitch and you die." However, us being eternal divine blissful beings as new age spiritual traditions would claim, then that would convey a different message to me. It would be the most powerful, beautiful, and harmonious message of all to me that would give me a sense of profound and deep bond with all of humanity. I would see much value in humanity and my life then.
dimreepr Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) To me, this being the only life and us being mere biological beings just bound to rot and decay makes this life and all of humanity seem so shallow to me. It just says to me: "Welp, that's just life for you. We are here, we live, we die, we suffer, and that is it. Life's a bitch and you die." However, us being eternal divine blissful beings as new age spiritual traditions would claim, then that would convey a different message to me. It would be the most powerful, beautiful, and harmonious message of all to me that would give me a sense of profound and deep bond with all of humanity. I would see much value in humanity and my life then. If someone points to the moon and declares its beauty, don't focus on the finger because you'll miss the point. Edited April 13, 2017 by dimreepr 1
Bender Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 Nothing matters, so why not make the most of it and enjoy the ride?
MattMVS7 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Posted April 13, 2017 If someone points to the moon and declares its beauty, don't focus on the finger because you'll miss the point. I tend to be a person who looks at the big picture. I am unable to focus on small things without looking at the big picture. Just think about this for a moment. There are people in unfortunate areas of the world who die within the first few days of birth. They never get the chance to live to fully cherish this life. They just die shortly after immense suffering and that is it for them. How is there any value in that? How does such a life possess any value?
Bender Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 I tend to be a person who looks at the big picture. I am unable to focus on small things without looking at the big picture. Just think about this for a moment. There are people in unfortunate areas of the world who die within the first few days of birth. They never get the chance to live to fully cherish this life. They just die shortly after immense suffering and that is it for them. How is there any value in that? How does such a life possess any value?why should it?
dimreepr Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 I tend to be a person who looks at the big picture. I am unable to focus on small things without looking at the big picture. Just think about this for a moment. There are people in unfortunate areas of the world who die within the first few days of birth. They never get the chance to live to fully cherish this life. They just die shortly after immense suffering and that is it for them. How is there any value in that? How does such a life possess any value? How would I know, I didn't live that life, and you're staring at my finger; none of us choose our circumstance, but all of us choose how we deal those circumstances.
MattMVS7 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Posted April 13, 2017 why should it? Because, without value, then we would all be living just to live and nothing more. I need actual value in my life here. How would I know, I didn't live that life, and you're staring at my finger; none of us choose our circumstance, but all of us choose how we deal those circumstances. Looking at this from the big picture, what it all comes down to is that you are the lucky one since you weren't in that horrible situation while that other individual was unfortunate and didn't get to live. How does this big picture have any value?
Phi for All Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 To me, this being the only life and us being mere biological beings just bound to rot and decay makes this life and all of humanity seem so shallow to me. It just says to me: "Welp, that's just life for you. We are here, we live, we die, we suffer, and that is it. Life's a bitch and you die." However, us being eternal divine blissful beings as new age spiritual traditions would claim, then that would convey a different message to me. It would be the most powerful, beautiful, and harmonious message of all to me that would give me a sense of profound and deep bond with all of humanity. I would see much value in humanity and my life then. I've thought of this as well, and I want you to know that so you don't think I'm just dismissing you. But look at how negatively you assume the limited life scenario is, and how you also assume that eternal life would be blissful and harmonious. Why can't you attempt your "bond" within your lifetime? I look at it this way. Given eternity, even a monkey could probably figure out bliss and harmony. I expect more of humans. It seems the eternal life scenario is pretty greedy to begin with, and has no mechanisms for ensuring bliss and harmony other than religious magic. Doing the best with what time I have sounds much more noble and intelligent, especially since I can't know if there even is consciousness after death. I need actual value in my life here. Wow. Is value determined by time? Hmmmmmm.
MattMVS7 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Posted April 13, 2017 I've thought of this as well, and I want you to know that so you don't think I'm just dismissing you. But look at how negatively you assume the limited life scenario is, and how you also assume that eternal life would be blissful and harmonious. Why can't you attempt your "bond" within your lifetime? I look at it this way. Given eternity, even a monkey could probably figure out bliss and harmony. I expect more of humans. It seems the eternal life scenario is pretty greedy to begin with, and has no mechanisms for ensuring bliss and harmony other than religious magic. Doing the best with what time I have sounds much more noble and intelligent, especially since I can't know if there even is consciousness after death. Wow. Is value determined by time? Hmmmmmm. It's because, as I said before, I cannot focus on the small things without looking at the big picture. Since the big picture is a universe that has no value and is just sheer luck where we all live and just die due to either old age or unfortunate circumstance, then I cannot find value in my life or in humanity since the value of my life and humanity is based upon the "big picture" based value rather than the "small picture" based value.
dimreepr Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) It's because, as I said before, I cannot focus on the small things without looking at the big picture. Since the big picture is a universe that has no value and is just sheer luck where we all live and just die due to either old age or unfortunate circumstance, then I cannot find value in my life or in humanity since the value of my life and humanity is based upon the "big picture" based value rather than the "small picture" based value. That's your choice, just like it's your choice what value you decide for you. Edited April 13, 2017 by dimreepr
Phi for All Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 It's because, as I said before, I cannot focus on the small things without looking at the big picture. Since the big picture is a universe that has no value and is just sheer luck where we all live and just die due to either old age or unfortunate circumstance, then I cannot find value in my life or in humanity since the value of my life and humanity is based upon the "big picture" based value rather than the "small picture" based value. Well, I find myself giving the same advice twice in one morning. You seem to have neatly boxed yourself into your worldview so you have only one way to look at the world. You've decided to block access to all the paths but one. So why did you start this thread? What is the problem with continuing to believe in your religious afterlife? Personally, I don't see a problem with it unless you start thinking you're invincible and undying, or stop caring about keeping yourself alive because you believe you'll live forever. If the cost of your beliefs aren't steep, why not just keep believing in an afterlife if it gives you the meaning you crave?
MattMVS7 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Posted April 13, 2017 Well, I find myself giving the same advice twice in one morning. You seem to have neatly boxed yourself into your worldview so you have only one way to look at the world. You've decided to block access to all the paths but one. So why did you start this thread? What is the problem with continuing to believe in your religious afterlife? Personally, I don't see a problem with it unless you start thinking you're invincible and undying, or stop caring about keeping yourself alive because you believe you'll live forever. If the cost of your beliefs aren't steep, why not just keep believing in an afterlife if it gives you the meaning you crave? I don't believe in an afterlife. That is the thing here.
Phi for All Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 I don't believe in an afterlife. That is the thing here. Sorry, I lost that part. Double sorry. But that's good news, actually. If you're looking for meaning for your life here in the natural world, there's lots to choose from. Is there anything besides eternity that would give meaning and value to your life?
dimreepr Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) I don't believe in an afterlife. That is the thing here. Then just live the life you have and stop whining/pining for the life, you think, you want. Edited April 13, 2017 by dimreepr
Phi for All Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 It's because, as I said before, I cannot focus on the small things without looking at the big picture. Since the big picture is a universe that has no value and is just sheer luck where we all live and just die due to either old age or unfortunate circumstance, then I cannot find value in my life or in humanity since the value of my life and humanity is based upon the "big picture" based value rather than the "small picture" based value. Here's the $64,000 question: If you had eternity to focus on the "big picture", what would you be doing to add value to your life?
MattMVS7 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Posted April 13, 2017 Then just live the life you have and stop whining/pining for the life, you think, you want. I can't have any value in this life I have and it is not a matter of choice on my part. Otherwise, you are right. It would be nothing more than a matter of me whining.
dimreepr Posted April 13, 2017 Posted April 13, 2017 I can't have any value in this life Why not, Bee's manage it.
MattMVS7 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Posted April 13, 2017 Why not, Bee's manage it. I will explain. It is only my good feelings that give my life value, worth, joy, beauty, etc. since they are the only experiences that have a real quality of value, worth, joy, beauty, etc. in my life. No other experience has any real quality of those things for me. It is not a matter of me looking at the experience of my good feelings, projecting a value judgment upon them, and claiming that they are the only experiences that give my life value, worth, joy, happiness, and beauty. Rather, this is what the experience truly is for me. There is a big difference between projecting a value judgment upon an experience as opposed to what the experience actually is for you. As I said before, I am not doing that. I am not projecting any value judgment upon these good feelings. With that being said, I do not have my good feelings due to a condition known as chronic anhedonia. Therefore, my life has no value and no attitude and no way of thinking can give my life any value since it is only my good feelings themselves that give my live value. This means that the only life I have to look forward to in order to give my life value would be an eternal blissful afterlife. It would be the life that has the greatest value and worth for me since I would have my good feelings to their fullest degree. But since I do not believe in such a life, then that leaves me with this life which cannot have any value to me.
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