Taking an unpopular position here...

[iNow]

The question to you was "How do you feel about his tendency to lie", you already conceded he lies, so why do we need to go lie by lie. You have made the answer to iNow's question obvious.....you don't care about the lying.

Quite right, and he even acknowledged this explicitly in another response to arc:

 

I couldn't care less if he lied about this or that.

[Phi for All]

It would be interesting to hear a defense of the I-couldn't-care-less-about-my-President's-lying position. He seems to have been successful at least in telling so many lies that many people are numb to it by now. Is this part of his ruthless and cagey businessman cleverness that so many people admire?

 

Also, welcome back, mississippichem! I hope you're back for a good long while.

[Prometheus]

It seems Trump is held to a different metric than other politicians. Normally people care if a politician is known to have lied, reneged on election promises, denigrated various populations, but Trump supporters do not care. I wouldn't be surprised that if Trump released his tax info and it showed blatantly unethical and even illegal practices his supporters just wouldn't care. He is held to a different standard. Why?

 

Also, i'd like to understand the 'he's one of us' attitude which comes from some of the working class. He's a business mogul born into millions: how does he even vaguely resemble the working class?

[Phi for All]

Also, i'd like to understand the 'he's one of us' attitude which comes from some of the working class. He's a business mogul born into millions: how does he even vaguely resemble the working class?

 

Harvard Business Review has a great article on that. Right about the time Nixon was conniving with Kaiser on HMOs, blue-collar whites developed (or were encouraged to develop) aversions to professional people which included union leaders, management, doctors, teachers, lawyers, and scientists.

 

https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class

One little-known element of that gap is that the white working class (WWC) resents professionals but admires the rich. Class migrants (white-collar professionals born to blue-collar families) report that “professional people were generally suspect” and that managers are college kids “who don’t know shit about how to do anything but are full of ideas about how I have to do my job,” said Alfred Lubrano in [/size]Limbo. Barbara Ehrenreich [/size]recalled in 1990 that her blue-collar dad “could not say the word [/size]doctor without the virtual prefix [/size]quack. Lawyers were [/size]shysters…and professors were without exception [/size]phonies.” [/size]Annette Lareau found tremendous resentment against teachers, who were perceived as condescending and unhelpful.[/size]

As the article points out, this resentment, for some reason, did NOT extend to wealthy people. Quite the opposite, in fact. Weird, huh, considering all the wealthy people are "professionals"?

[Ten oz]

It seems Trump is held to a different metric than other politicians. Normally people care if a politician is known to have lied, reneged on election promises, denigrated various populations, but Trump supporters do not care. I wouldn't be surprised that if Trump released his tax info and it showed blatantly unethical and even illegal practices his supporters just wouldn't care. He is held to a different standard. Why?

 

Also, i'd like to understand the 'he's one of us' attitude which comes from some of the working class. He's a business mogul born into millions: how does he even vaguely resemble the working class?

Trump campaigned he'd repeal the ACA and replace it with something cheaper that covered everyone. Once in office he asked the House to invent something. He didn't actually have a plan or even a rough outline of his own for healthcare. On Syria and ISIS he saidhe had a plan, a plan he wouldn't explain because he didn't want our enemies to know about. Once in office he asked our Generals to come up with something and went from Assad can stay to bombing Syria saying Assad needs to go is a matter of days. Trump never had a plan for dealing with Syria or ISIS. Trump said he would build a big physical wall and that Mexico would pay for the wall. Now in office he is asking Congress for money to pay for the wall and some of it will just be repairs to existing fencing. Trump winging it. He doesn't have any grounded policy plans.

 

His supporters are fine with this because it is about identity politics. They feel real Americans (self proclaimed by so many conservatives) should be the ones to making decisions for better or worse. The "he's one of us" attitude has nothing to be with money. It is about the way conservatives prioritize their cultural values and ideologies over all others. It is about religion, race, and misogyny. That is what makes Trump a "one of us".

[Sensei]

I cannot believe some science forum members voted +2 your post...

after he revealed he molested women (and have been recorded on video) putting hands in their pussies etc. etc.

which were not his lovers...

Edited April 17, 2017 by Sensei

[iNow]

It seems I'm not the only one who's noticed Trumps proclivity for breaking promises.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/208640/majority-no-longer-thinks-trump-keeps-promises.aspx

President Donald Trump's image among Americans as someone who keeps his promises has faded in the first two months of his presidency, falling from 62% in February to 45%. The public is also less likely to see him as a "strong and decisive leader," as someone who "can bring about the changes this country needs" or as "honest and trustworthy."

(...)

With close to two-thirds of Americans saying in February that Trump "keeps his promises," it was clearly a strength for the president. Given the sharp decline on that dimension this month, that is no longer the case.

(...)

In the two months since, however, Trump appeared to walk away from repealing the Affordable Care Act after Republicans failed to agree on the healthcare replacement bill that Trump stood behind. Political friends and foes alike have complained that Trump is not carrying out the promises he made on the campaign trail. Supporters have expressed unhappiness that more has not been done on taxes and immigration, in addition to healthcare. Opponents say he has not protected middle- and working-class Americans.

 

Whether young or old, Democrat or Republican, male or female, Americans are less likely now than they were two months ago to think Trump keeps his promises.

Edited April 17, 2017 by iNow

[StringJunky]

It seems I'm not the only one who's noticed Trumps proclivity for breaking promises.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/208640/majority-no-longer-thinks-trump-keeps-promises.aspx

Well, you'd have to be thick to not see his insincerity from the beginning. All his history was there for everybody to see what was to come when he became president. He's not running the show anyway; he's a puppet on strings with many more-skilled hands up his arse, moving him and telling him what to say. This is all leaders, not just him; autocrats excepted.

Edited April 17, 2017 by StringJunky

[Phi for All]

It seems I'm not the only one who's noticed Trumps proclivity for breaking promises.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/208640/majority-no-longer-thinks-trump-keeps-promises.aspx

 

I think there's a third and distinct category of untruth that needs addressing as well. We have lies about things that are easily checked, broken promise lies, and "alternative facts" lies. I would like to see a supporter support why alternative facts and fake news stories are a positive part of this administration.

[StringJunky]

 

I would like to see a supporter support why alternative facts and fake news stories are a positive part of this administration.

Is 'fake news' and 'alternative facts' 21st century-speak for propaganda.

Edited April 17, 2017 by StringJunky

[Ten oz]

 

I think there's a third and distinct category of untruth that needs addressing as well. We have lies about things that are easily checked, broken promise lies, and "alternative facts" lies. I would like to see a supporter support why alternative facts and fake news stories are a positive part of this administration.

I apologize for some of the language in the video but comedian Louis CK summed up Trump's lying well while being interviewed on Colbert's late night show:

 

[iNow]

I cannot believe some science forum members voted +2 your post...

This response unfortunately shows little more than your inability to comprehend the nature of a community, and how this site is one.

 

We can (and rather often do) fundamentally disagree with the politics of a fellow member while still 1) being glad to see them posting again / signaling that they're well after a long hiatus, and 2) respecting the willingness and (frankly) strength of character it requires to speak openly about a tense subject, especially when expressing an obviously unpopular position.

 

It's simple, really. In this world full of tribal dynamics and hyperpartisanship, we need MORE people willing to do what mississippichem did here, not fewer.

 

Conversation and openness is what will help us survive this challenging epoch in which we currently find ourselves, and a bit of positive reinforcement in those rare instances when we experience it should be lauded.

 

Attack the argument, but welcome the person. Share ideas. Change minds. Improve the world.

Edited April 20, 2017 by iNow

[MigL]

First off, welcome back, Mississippichem.

I hope these guys haven't sent you back into hibernation by pouncing on you so hard, but why not reverse the format...

 

What policies did D Trump promise during the election that appealed to you ?

I know its only been a few months but which policies is he on track to deliver ?

Are you happy with your vote, or are you questioning it now ?

 

The last one is particularly important, as everyone is entitled to a vote, in order to shape the kind of society they want to live in.

( also very subjective )

[CharonY]

First off, welcome back, Mississippichem.

I hope these guys haven't sent you back into hibernation by pouncing on you so hard, but why not reverse the format...

 

What policies did D Trump promise during the election that appealed to you ?

I know its only been a few months but which policies is he on track to deliver ?

Are you happy with your vote, or are you questioning it now ?

 

The last one is particularly important, as everyone is entitled to a vote, in order to shape the kind of society they want to live in.

( also very subjective )

 

I don't intend to speak for him, but I think he addresses many of these questions in post #4.

[StringJunky]

This response unfortunately shows little more than your inability to comprehend the nature of a community, and how this site is one.

 

We can (and rather often do) fundamentally disagree with the politics of a fellow member while still 1) being glad to see them posting again / signaling that they're well after a long hiatus, and 2) respecting the willingness and (frankly) strength of character it requires to speak openly about a tense subject, especially when expressing an obviously unpopular position.

 

It's simple, really. In this world full of tribal dynamics and hyperpartisanship, we need MORE people willing to do what mississippichem did here, not fewer.

 

Conversation and openness is what will help us survive this challenging epoch in which we currently find ourselves, and a bit of positive reinforcement in those rare instances when we experience it should be lauded.

 

Attack the argument, but welcome the person. Share ideas. Change minds. Improve the world.

Absolutely. What is a discussion without an opposing view? It is dialogue between opposites that brings change; no side is completely right and no side is completely wrong.

[CharonY]

Also, it is useful as a platform to discuss why certain views are held, by testing assumptions. In this thread, for example, it has been proposed that governmental structures such as, say EPA or research funding programs have been bloated and steadily increased. As a consequence, they have to be pruned back regularly. I have provided a counter example of plateauing or even declining funding. Likewise I could point out that the EPA's budget has declined since the 80s as part of federal budget or that the workforce and expenditure have been constant since the 90s but started declining since ~2013 (i.e. under Obama).

 

Because then we could move the discussion regarding what size these structures should have, and what possible consequences are (for example). Everyone of us has some preconceptions but with some luck we will find someone to challenge them (ideally by being familiar with them or having data at hand). However, opposing a view just for sake of opposition is not terribly productive.

Edited April 20, 2017 by CharonY

[Ten oz]

@StringJunky, I agree that opposing views are good for a discussion. I agree that there is a lot of positive which can come from diverse points of view. However I disagree that one side is never totally wrong or right. Sometimes positions are advocated merely to be contrarian, distract, promote propaganda, or etc. While on the other side something have be empirically proven. I think many people, not necessarily you, are too quick to assume the center between two positions is a safe or fair place to treat as true. People take advantages of that tendency.

[Arete]

Likewise I could point out that the EPA's budget has declined since the 80s as part of federal budget or that the workforce and expenditure have been constant since the 90s but started declining since ~2013 (i.e. under Obama).

 

Or the resounding success that the 1970 Clean Air Act has been in reducing sulfate and nitrate deposition across the US: http://nadp.isws.illinois.edu/newsletter/nl4/