how to turn a believer

[Area54]

7 hours ago, Strange said:

Japan isn't that remote

It is if you live in the Andromeda galaxy. (These Earth people are so parochial.)

[Eric H]

9 hours ago, hypervalent_iodine said:

!

Moderator Note

Eric H, this is not the thread (nor the forum) for proselytising. Please stop.

 

Sorry, I am not sure how I am proselytising, could you explain please? The thread asks how to turn a believer away from their beliefs, I thought I was just responding to some of the arguments.

 

[koti]

11 minutes ago, Eric H said:

Sorry, I am not sure how I am proselytising, could you explain please? The thread asks how to turn a believer away from their beliefs, I thought I was just responding to some of the arguments.

 

There is a religion section (this one) on this site but you misinterpret it for a place in which you can spread your beliefs in. The reason I am part of these SCIENCE forums is not to have to deal with people who spread the „warmth” and „kindness” of any belief system, I have enough of that in my every day life. I respect you as a person and I do not deny you of the benefits that you think your religion is giving you. Why do you not respect a group of people (me included) who gather at a small place on the internet to discuss science and instead you preach and then pretend that youre not? 

The OP states „how to turn a believer” and instead of adresing it, your last post was:

”We can't change God the creator of all that is seen and unseen, just because we worship seemingly different gods. The same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation; and that has to mean caring for each other despite our differences” 

which is proselytising at its finest. Are you pretending or are you genuinly not aware that you are preaching? 

 

[Strange]

33 minutes ago, Eric H said:

Sorry, I am not sure how I am proselytising, could you explain please? The thread asks how to turn a believer away from their beliefs, I thought I was just responding to some of the arguments.

You need to respond with a rational argument. Not just repeating your belief in your chosen god(s). 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Strange
grammar

[Prometheus]

23 hours ago, Moontanman said:

This is religion in it's purest form...

It's a good clip, but is only applicable to about 3 world religions. Even 'theistic' religions like Hinduism shouldn't be lumped together for this kind of criticism - it deserves another kind criticism.

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, Prometheus said:

It's a good clip, but is only applicable to about 3 world religions. Even 'theistic' religions like Hinduism shouldn't be lumped together for this kind of criticism - it deserves another kind criticism.

I'm not sure we are communicating exactly, very nearly all religions promise some sort of afterlife for worshiping the correct way. This promise of an afterlife cannot be confirmed so it tantamount to kissing hank's ass... or Hank's representatives on Earth. Carrot and a stick, classic way to control people... 

[dimreepr]

21 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I'm not sure we are communicating exactly, very nearly all religions promise some sort of afterlife for worshiping the correct way. This promise of an afterlife cannot be confirmed so it tantamount to kissing hank's ass... or Hank's representatives on Earth. 

1

Karma, heaven and hell, for me, it works in two ways: 

1. If one does something one knows to be wrong, one suffers because there's no more formidable judge than oneself, whereas if one does something one knows to be good, one gets a warm fuzzy feeling and a hit of dopamine.

2. If one understands the above one can relax, forgive and enjoy a beer; no need for revenge or a promise that points mean prizes when one's dead.

21 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Carrot and a stick, classic way to control people... 

Or a method of teaching.

Edited March 24, 2018 by dimreepr

[Prometheus]

5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I'm not sure we are communicating exactly, very nearly all religions promise some sort of afterlife for worshiping the correct way. This promise of an afterlife cannot be confirmed so it tantamount to kissing hank's ass... or Hank's representatives on Earth. Carrot and a stick, classic way to control people... 

It's it a very Abrahamic-centric (is that a word?) perspective, which is no surprise given we are on a predominantly Western site. But the assumption that most religions are similar enough to the Abrahamic faiths that all the same criticisms can be levelled at them, like Hank's arse, i think is incorrect.

Take the Hindu concept of afterlife for instance: you will be reincarnated regardless of whether you believe in the religion or not. Some sects believe your actions in this life influence that reincarnation and some don't: but most Hindus believe that eventually all people will end up back as part of God (Atman) - this is regardless of the belief: hindu, muslim, atheist. You don't have to kiss Hank's arse to receive that 'benefit'. So that particular criticism can't be levelled at Hinduism. And so on for Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto...

All i'm saying is that the Abrahamic faiths aren't the only religions, and most other religions are different enough that the particular criticisms in Hank's arse video aren't applicable to them. I think it's relevant because when asked how to turn a believer, quite what they believe in is pertinent.

[koti]

Sure...but kissing Hanks ass pertains to ~50% of all faiths (Christianity and Islam) so its only logical to point out the process. 

[Sensei]

On 23.03.2018 at 10:26 PM, Area54 said:

It is if you live in the Andromeda galaxy. (These Earth people are so parochial.)

Why do you think extraterrestrial life forms from other galaxy are more advanced than you...?

 

[Area54]

39 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Why do you think extraterrestrial life forms from other galaxy are more advanced than you...?

• It is statistically probable. (Figures available upon request.)
• What makes you think I believe it to be the case? (The post was an attempt at humour. It required I adopt that viewpoint.)
• What makes you think the parochial are less advanced than the cosmopolitan?

[Prometheus]

51 minutes ago, koti said:

Sure...but kissing Hanks ass pertains to ~50% of all faiths (Christianity and Islam) so its only logical to point out the process. 

By percent of followers, for sure. I have no problems with pointing out the process for these, or any religions. But the arguments on this thread (and generally on this forum) still leave out ~50% of religions, which statements like 'this is religion in it's purest form' neglect.

[koti]

4 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

By percent of followers, for sure. I have no problems with pointing out the process for these, or any religions. But the arguments on this thread (and generally on this forum) still leave out ~50% of religions, which statements like 'this is religion in it's purest form' neglect.

Its also worth mentioning that from the remaining 50% about 10% are primal indigenous religions out of which many are far more „controversial” than kissing Hank’s ass. 

[Prometheus]

11 minutes ago, koti said:

Its also worth mentioning that from the remaining 50% about 10% are primal indigenous religions out of which many are far more „controversial” than kissing Hank’s ass. 

I don't know anything about indigenous religions - are they the same as folk religion? Wikipedia has them down at 6.4% of the global population. My guess is that the beliefs of these groups vary quite widely. I don't fancy trying to research them though, have a hard enough time learning about the majors ones.

[Area54]

Surely, if you wish to turn a believer, you should torque to him.

[Moontanman]

19 hours ago, Prometheus said:

It's it a very Abrahamic-centric (is that a word?) perspective, which is no surprise given we are on a predominantly Western site. But the assumption that most religions are similar enough to the Abrahamic faiths that all the same criticisms can be levelled at them, like Hank's arse, i think is incorrect.

Take the Hindu concept of afterlife for instance: you will be reincarnated regardless of whether you believe in the religion or not. Some sects believe your actions in this life influence that reincarnation and some don't: but most Hindus believe that eventually all people will end up back as part of God (Atman) - this is regardless of the belief: hindu, muslim, atheist. You don't have to kiss Hank's arse to receive that 'benefit'. So that particular criticism can't be levelled at Hinduism. And so on for Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto...

All i'm saying is that the Abrahamic faiths aren't the only religions, and most other religions are different enough that the particular criticisms in Hank's arse video aren't applicable to them. I think it's relevant because when asked how to turn a believer, quite what they believe in is pertinent.

 

I gave you a plus for that, very thought out and definitely true. But I have to point out that kissing Hank's ass via Hank's representative  on Earth does apply to all religions that promise life after death. Such a promise is a powerful carrot and sick. The religions you talk about all promise something after death  with no evidence but you are correct in that it represents abrahamic religions 

16 hours ago, Area54 said:

Surely, if you wish to turn a believer, you should torque to him.

Torque him? Which wrench does that take? 

[Area54]

Earlier I said " Surely, if you wish to turn a believer, you should torque to him. "

 

11 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Torque him? Which wrench does that take? 

Any one that will let you socket to him.

 

Edit: On further reflection you may want to be adjustable in the approach you take. The whole subject is open ended. It's very easy to ratchet up the associated emotions. You just don't want to come out of it looking like a tool, or putting a spanner in the works. Well that's enough monkeying around for the moment*.

* We all know what moments are associated with, right?

Edited March 25, 2018 by Area54

[koti]

1 hour ago, Area54 said:

Earlier I said " Surely, if you wish to turn a believer, you should torque to him. "

 

Any one that will let you socket to him.

 

Edit: On further reflection you may want to be adjustable in the approach you take. The whole subject is open ended. It's very easy to ratchet up the associated emotions. You just don't want to come out of it looking like a tool, or putting a spanner in the works. Well that's enough monkeying around for the moment*.

* We all know what moments are associated with, right?

If you use a screwdriver on a poor quality screw over a long enough period of time, the screw gets damaged beyond repair. You can always drill it and use a new one.

So the moral is, sometimes its impossible to turn a believer, you need to wait a generation or two for things to change.

Edited March 25, 2018 by koti

[dimreepr]

14 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Torque him? Which wrench does that take? 

 

A monkey wrench...

[Area54]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

A monkey wrench...

Pay attention! I referenced monkey wrench in my earlier post. It was the 7th wrench related pun in it. Thus: " Well that's enough monkeying around for the moment."

Edited March 26, 2018 by Area54

[iNow]

You're both wrong. Obviously, it would be a vice grip, getting rid of those bad behaviors and whatnot. Or, if this were about Islam, perhaps a crescent wrench would fit that "nut" better. 

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, Area54 said:

Pay attention! I referenced monkey wrench in my earlier post. It was the 7th wrench related pun in it. Thus: " Well that's enough monkeying around for the moment."

 

32 minutes ago, iNow said:

You're both wrong. Obviously, it would be a vice grip, getting rid of those bad behaviors and whatnot. Or, if this were about Islam, perhaps a crescent wrench would fit that "nut" better. 

Are you trying to turn my belief, in a pun? 

[koti]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

 

Are you trying to turn my belief, in a pun? 

That's ok dimreepr, I'm not offended by your belief.

[Moontanman]

Does anyone ever stop and think about how well most of us get along here and wonder why the real world is so different? 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Does anyone ever stop and think about how well most of us get along here and wonder why the real world is so different? 

TBH my part of the real world is just as cordial.