koti Posted May 7, 2017 Posted May 7, 2017 (edited) http://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/study-finds-link-between-brain-damage-and-religious-fundamentalism The study can be found here:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028393217301318 Edited May 7, 2017 by koti
swansont Posted May 7, 2017 Posted May 7, 2017 "they are not stating religious people overall are mentally inflexible or that belief is caused by brain damage. There are many cognitive processes involved in forming beliefs. But in some people, the system of “belief revision” may become suppressed due to brain damage."
koti Posted May 7, 2017 Author Posted May 7, 2017 "In particular, lesions in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex reduced cognitive flexibility - the ability to challenge our beliefs based on new evidence"
Raider5678 Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 http://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/study-finds-link-between-brain-damage-and-religious-fundamentalism The study can be found here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028393217301318 Yep. No bias there.
koti Posted May 8, 2017 Author Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) Yep. No bias there. What bias, where would it be? I don't understand. Edited May 8, 2017 by koti
DrKrettin Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 I've just read a newspaper interpretation of this with the headline "Brain damage can make you religious" There are no real journalists these days.
koti Posted May 8, 2017 Author Posted May 8, 2017 I've just read a newspaper interpretation of this with the headline "Brain damage can make you religious" There are no real journalists these days. Right...the journalists develop their own biased language which is more "scandal friendly" If I were that journalist I'd state it like this: "Being religious can lead to brain damage" I googled the original manuscript and browsed through it. Apparently this study is nothing breathtaking but at least they stated that... "Several study limitations should be apparent in light of our rare participant sample. Our participants were all male Vietnam combat veterans. Only CT scans could be used to identify lesion location and size given the presence of metal within the brain due to low velocity shrapnel wounds. Further studies using larger and more diverse samples, including female and nonmilitary samples, are necessary to confirm that our conclusions are applicable to healthy individuals or other clinical populations (e.g., epilepsy patients)" ...which is nice of them to do. I certainly appreciate the fact that we are living in times when these kinds of studies can actually take place - it wasn't long ago when they'd be hanged for this. Out of curiosity I just checked if blasphemy is still a felony here where I live and it turns out that blasphemy is a criminal offence subject to a fine, penalty or imprisonment of up to 2 years. I presume there are far more European countries with such laws in place. Sigh.
DrKrettin Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 . Out of curiosity I just checked if blasphemy is still a felony here where I live and it turns out that blasphemy is a criminal offence subject to a fine, penalty or imprisonment of up to 2 years. I presume there are far more European countries with such laws in place. Sigh. Only this week, Stephen Fry has been investigated by the Irish police for blasphemy, because he called god an effing moron, or something like that. It's worth seeing his interview. More info here This is Europe in the 21st century. But it's Ireland, so really only the 18th century.
koti Posted May 8, 2017 Author Posted May 8, 2017 Only this week, Stephen Fry has been investigated by the Irish police for blasphemy, because he called god an effing moron, or something like that. It's worth seeing his interview. More info here This is Europe in the 21st century. But it's Ireland, so really only the 18th century. Ah, what a wonderful Stephen Fry interview. I sincerely hope he's going to raise far more than the 25k euro that he potentially needs and use it to spread more "blasphemy"
koti Posted May 9, 2017 Author Posted May 9, 2017 Looks like they dropped the charges against Stephen Fry:https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/stephen-fry-blasphemy-investigation-dropped-gardai-couldnt-find-enough-outraged-people-587610
MonDie Posted May 9, 2017 Posted May 9, 2017 The researchers mention "mental openness", which could refer to the Openness To Experience factor of the widely validated Five-factor Model of human personality. Openness has a mixed relationship with religiosity. That is, many studies have found a relationship, but the relationship can go either way depending on your sample. This table provides further information for each "facet". Table 2 of Five-Factor Model Personality Traits, Spirituality/Religiousness, and Mental health Among People Living With HIV https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739880/table/T2/ Interestingly enough, the religious scored lowest for the values and actions facets of Openness rather than the ideas facet. I thought this suggested that religiously closed people are actually resistant to changes in their values rather than changes in their ideas about reality.
koti Posted May 9, 2017 Author Posted May 9, 2017 The researchers mention "mental openness", which could refer to the Openness To Experience factor of the widely validated Five-factor Model of human personality. Openness has a mixed relationship with religiosity. That is, many studies have found a relationship, but the relationship can go either way depending on your sample. This table provides further information for each "facet". Table 2 of Five-Factor Model Personality Traits, Spirituality/Religiousness, and Mental health Among People Living With HIV https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739880/table/T2/ Interestingly enough, the religious scored lowest for the values and actions facets of Openness rather than the ideas facet. I thought this suggested that religiously closed people are actually resistant to changes in their values rather than changes in their ideas about reality. Yes, In my opinion the term "openness" is abused in this study as it is such a subjective term and they throw it around like it's one dimensional.
JoshuaBE516 Posted May 14, 2017 Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) A group of Christian fundamentalists talk about this study. The discussion can be found at the Creation Liberty Forums: http://creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=494.msg3366#new They had interesting things to say, and presented some points I had never considered. I learned things and I recommend you watch it when you have the time (and yes, I have a bias). Edited May 14, 2017 by JoshuaBE516
KipIngram Posted May 14, 2017 Posted May 14, 2017 Whether it's intentional or not, part of the religious mindset is to wear "armor" against counterarguments. Most people who are zealously religious (by that I mean that their words and behavior "broadcast" their faith) have had many people challenge their beliefs. They've become skilled at keeping that input from changing their mind. I think it's warranted in some cases, because not everyone who challenges their beliefs are motivated by simple quest for rationality and evidence processing - there are also people out there who simply want to tear religion down, as an end in itself.
koti Posted May 14, 2017 Author Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) A group of Christian fundamentalists talk about this study. The discussion can be found at the Creation Liberty Forums: http://creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=494.msg3366#new They had interesting things to say, and presented some points I had never considered. I learned things and I recommend you watch it when you have the time (and yes, I have a bias). Hi Joshua and since this is your first post - welcome to the Science forums. I hope you will stay and benefit from this community. You are posting a Christian fundamentalist talk backed by the Creationist Liberty Forums on a Science forum in the science news section which is highly presumptuous but since this is a thread which I started I'm going to answer. I've watched the first 3 minutes of the video you posted and could not continue beyond, let me explain why. First of all, the young man dressed in black named Joshua in the video states at the very beginning that no one outside of your church is permitted to participate in your online video call. This hermetic attitude towards reason and outside thinking would threaten your beliefs and threaten your church which is understandable - you need to keep people quite when running a nice, small sect. Please notice that we here at science forums are not that way - we are open for discussion. Secondly, Joshua in the video is clearly of North American origin and states that he lives in southern California yet he can barely read his native language. This doesn't prognosticate well for the quality of the rest of this video. Thirdly, I've noticed that the second participant, Christopher who as stated in the video established the Creationist Liberty Evangelism Church, is in a commanding manner looking for evidence in a scientific study yet as a creationist his belief system is based by definition only on lack of evidence and primitive lies. I would encourage you to stay on this forum and look for interesting new things to learn. There is a whole world out there of wonders to learn about and we have such a short time to find out about them. It is such a waste of your precious life to spend it on silly misconceptions and lies. I too will share a video with you, it is only 38 seconds long yet it bares a lot more wisdom than the one you shared: Edited May 14, 2017 by koti 2
KipIngram Posted May 14, 2017 Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) +1 for Feynman videos - I think I've seen that very one (I didn't play it, but I watched a flock of them recently and think I remember this bit). The man was nothing short of amazing in his ability to convey the scientific perspective. Joshua, I think the biggest piece of advice I'd share with you, and with anyone, is "Don't abdicate control over your own opinions. You have a mind. Train it, use it, and think for yourself in all things." Edited May 14, 2017 by KipIngram
Zolobrine Posted May 20, 2017 Posted May 20, 2017 Sidenote: I do not know much about neuroscience and psychology yet. From my perspective, religion is a way to control large groups of people with ease as pretty much all tribes developed this belief of a higher being when they grew in numbers and weren't able to sustain a calm, peaceful society with only some police force and a single (or a group) of leaders. However, this "control" might not be as bad as it sounds, sacrificing a tiny bit of freedom in this case generally implies to living peacefully inside the community, understanding this I stand by not teaching atheism although I am one. Some claim that religion is something that is gained throughout our evolutionary history but I refuse to believe that, I believe that it is a socially transmitted type of group self-control that closely resembles a hivemind system. I still think the world is not ready for a full change to atheism, although we all know the cons of religion, we still need to factor in the state of the world. As of now religion works like a combustion engine that drives humanity but pollutes the surroundings but it is inexpensive and simple, it gives us time to adapt to the free energy solution (windmills and solar plants are atheism in this case). There's no reason to fight religion beliefs as we ourselves aren't ready for a change this big. Thank you for your time.
KipIngram Posted May 20, 2017 Posted May 20, 2017 Zolobrine: I also think organized religion has been used as a system of control throughout history. I'm not surprised in the least that leaders recognized and exploited the opportunity to use it to influence the masses.
koti Posted May 20, 2017 Author Posted May 20, 2017 I'm not surprised in the least that leaders recognized and exploited the opportunity to use it to influence the masses. That doesn't surprise me too. What surprises me is that this has been going on for millenia and still a vast majority of people are susceptible to the brain washing. I can understand that the ancient Egyptians due to complete lack of education were an easy target for spreading fear and brainwashing them into believing that sun eclipses are wrath of the gods but modern days? I hope that within my lifetime more and more people will start waking up.
KipIngram Posted May 20, 2017 Posted May 20, 2017 It would be interesting to see how many people would be drawn into modern religion if they could reach adulthood and receive a full education before ever being exposed to it. I'd wager very, very few. I think that far and away most people "go there" because they had it introduced to them from the time they could talk.
Raider5678 Posted May 21, 2017 Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) http://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/study-finds-link-between-brain-damage-and-religious-fundamentalism The study can be found here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028393217301318 So, a link that certain brain damage means people have a harder time challenging their beliefs? Okay. You realize that can apply to more then just religion right? And I know you're gonna hate this. But this study also found a link between atheism and brain damage. Whether you believe it or not. Edited May 21, 2017 by Raider5678
koti Posted May 21, 2017 Author Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) It would be interesting to see how many people would be drawn into modern religion if they could reach adulthood and receive a full education before ever being exposed to it. I'd wager very, very few. I think that far and away most people "go there" because they had it introduced to them from the time they could talk. I'm sure broadening of knowledge would at least cause a shift from conservative beliefs like creationism. And I know you're gonna hate this. But this study also found a link between atheism and brain damage. Whether you believe it or not. I must have missed that. Could you point out where that can be found in that study? And also what does my belief or lack of it have to do with this or any other scientific study? Edited May 21, 2017 by koti
Raider5678 Posted May 21, 2017 Posted May 21, 2017 I'm sure broadening of knowledge would at least cause a shift from conservative beliefs like creationism. I must have missed that. Could you point out where that can be found in that study? And also what does my belief or lack of it have to do with this or any other scientific study? The study found no link between brain damage and religiousness. It found a link in the ability to modify your fundamental beliefs. Otherwise, if you believe in God when you get the brain legions, then you'll have a harder time changing your beliefs. If you don't believe in God when you get the brain legions, then you'll have a harder time changing your beliefs. It isn't some "one way" road. This is a very important scientific study that shows how brain legions can cause illogical thought processes. But you, and the news article, have gone and twisted it around to use it against religion. Whether I believe in God or not doesn't matter. You're taking it out of context and trying to make it say something it didn't.
koti Posted May 21, 2017 Author Posted May 21, 2017 The study found no link between brain damage and religiousness. It found a link in the ability to modify your fundamental beliefs. Otherwise, if you believe in God when you get the brain legions, then you'll have a harder time changing your beliefs. If you don't believe in God when you get the brain legions, then you'll have a harder time changing your beliefs. It isn't some "one way" road. This is a very important scientific study that shows how brain legions can cause illogical thought processes. But you, and the news article, have gone and twisted it around to use it against religion. Whether I believe in God or not doesn't matter. You're taking it out of context and trying to make it say something it didn't. You stated that this study found a link between brain damage and atheism. Please stop evading my question by shifting (again) into impying that I said something which I didnt (I never reffered to your belief in god) Just answer the question - where does it state in this study that theres a link between brain damage and atheism.
Raider5678 Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 You stated that this study found a link between brain damage and atheism. Please stop evading my question by shifting (again) into impying that I said something which I didnt (I never reffered to your belief in god) Just answer the question - where does it state in this study that theres a link between brain damage and atheism. You, and the study both said it when you reworded the study to say "Study finds link between brain damage and religious fundamentalism." You both worded it as such. Except, you added the word religious, because the original study didn't have that. And since you can add religious without making it a false statement, I can also add atheism. But both of those are dragging the results of the study, and twisting them to say what we want it to say. Ultimately, it found exactly what the study says it found. A link between brain legions and the non ability to change your fundamental beliefs. I simply pointed out where the news article went wrong.
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