Janus Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 The atoms in a clock are a machine, they are not alive and self replicating. Why would organic matter age any slower because a clock ticks slow. Your body is not a machine wired to a clock, it is organic. You are not seriously trying to argue that organic material is subject to different laws of physics than non-organic? A "living" object is no more or less a machine than an non-organic clock. It is a highly complex machine based on electro-chemical reactions, but a machine non-the-less. In fact, due to its complex nature, it is much more susceptible to outside physical influence than a simple mechanical clock would be( though as pointed out by pzkpfw, Relativity does not rely on outside "physical influences". There is nothing metaphysical about organic matter that makes it special in that manner.
Handy andy Posted May 15, 2017 Author Posted May 15, 2017 The particles in a clock are affected by differing levels of gravity and will change their motion accordingly, they are also affected by speed through space, and again will change their orbit accordingly. An electron orbiting a atom at 0.5c travelling at 0.5c will have a peak speed through space of c and a minimum speed of 0, this is impossible, the electron must change its energy level or orbit to compensate. The speed of light is the limit at which information can be transmitted in any spacial reference frame and is the same every where, at the other side of the galaxy for instance. In an identical galaxy accelerating away from us at 3c at the other side of the universe a clock positioned in a gravitational field or moving in the same way as one at this side of the galaxy will tick at the same rate, people will age at the same rate. Time dilation is a function of the gravitational field or spacial reference frame the clock is moving in. Time does not go slower in any ones reference frame. In a high gravity field a clock will slow down and in a black hole possibly stop, if you are travelling into a black hole your time is still doomed to end, not with stationery time but more with a splat. If you could transmit the information out of the black hole it would be affected by red shift and appear to slow down, but in real terms of both an observer and the person about to go splat time goes on as per normal. You are not seriously trying to argue that organic material is subject to different laws of physics than non-organic? A "living" object is no more or less a machine than an non-organic clock. It is a highly complex machine based on electro-chemical reactions, but a machine non-the-less. In fact, due to its complex nature, it is much more susceptible to outside physical influence than a simple mechanical clock would be( though as pointed out by pzkpfw, Relativity does not rely on outside "physical influences". There is nothing metaphysical about organic matter that makes it special in that manner. I am just stating that a clock that ticks slow does not cause anyone to live longer.
Strange Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) I am just stating that a clock that ticks slow does not cause anyone to live longer. You can state that. But the only justification you have given is the surreal "living and reproducing atoms" one. As we know that is not true, you either need to admit that all atoms behave the same (and therefore all systems will be slowed in the same way) or come up with something ever so slightly more plausible. How can a water clock, a candle clock, a pendulum clock, a spring and escapement clock, an atomic clock and every other sort of clock slow down (by exactly the same amount), but a biological clock (heartbeat, brainwaves, biochemical reactions, etc) not slow down? Edited May 15, 2017 by Strange 1
pzkpfw Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 ... I am just stating that a clock that ticks slow does not cause anyone to live longer. Neither is anyone else. The clock doesn't affect time; time dilation affects the clock (and anything else travelling with that clock). 1
Handy andy Posted May 15, 2017 Author Posted May 15, 2017 How can a water clock, a candle clock, a pendulum clock, a spring and escapement clock, an atomic clock and every other sort of clock slow down (by exactly the same amount), but a biological clock (heartbeat, brainwaves, biochemical reactions, etc) not slow down? Do I need to answer this Neither is anyone else. The clock doesn't affect time; time dilation affects the clock (and anything else travelling with that clock). Gravity or space affects the clock and causes time dilation. Gravity affects everything at every level even in clocks.
Strange Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 Do I need to answer this Yes. Gravity or space affects the clock and causes time dilation. Gravity affects everything at every level even in clocks. And does "everything" include living bodies?
pzkpfw Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 ... Gravity or space affects the clock and causes time dilation. Gravity affects everything at every level even in clocks. How does that not contradict your own claims about clocks and life span? 1
Handy andy Posted May 15, 2017 Author Posted May 15, 2017 How does that not contradict your own claims about clocks and life span? It does not contradict anything I have said on this thread. It reinforces what I am saying. Time Dilation as measured on clocks is due to the location of the clock in gravitational field, and movement through space. Time does not slow down, it is just the clock or method used for measuring time slows down. If two clocks move of in different directions and arrive back at the same location reading different times. They both exist at the same time, and place. Their clocks have just been ticking slower due to the influence of distorted space around them. If space is viewed as a substance like a very fine fluid flowing in and around everything, it becomes easier to visualize the gravitational potentials around waves(particles) travelling through the substance of space. If you stick with gravity potential wells it works the same way but isn't so easy to visualize or as dynamic. -1
Strange Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 It does not contradict anything I have said on this thread. It reinforces what I am saying. You said "everything". But previously you said it only affected "mechanical atoms" and not "living atoms". So, is it everything or is it only atoms that are dead? If two clocks move of in different directions and arrive back at the same location reading different times. They both exist at the same time, and place. Their clocks have just been ticking slower due to the influence of distorted space around them. No one is going to disagree with that. So I'm not sure what your point is. (Note that the people carrying the clocks will also be "reading different times"; i.e. have aged differently. Otherwise we would see our clocks slow down. Which doesn't happen.)
studiot Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 handy andy ....Time does not slow down.... One last time (pun intended) There is no such thing as absolute time, which your statement necessitates to be true.
Lord Antares Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 It does not contradict anything I have said on this thread. It reinforces what I am saying. Time Dilation as measured on clocks is due to the location of the clock in gravitational field, and movement through space. Time does not slow down, it is just the clock or method used for measuring time slows down. If two clocks move of in different directions and arrive back at the same location reading different times. They both exist at the same time, and place. Their clocks have just been ticking slower due to the influence of distorted space around them. This is incredibly wrong. I agree with the others; it's completely ridiculous that you would think that time dilation only occurs for clocks and nothing else in the universe. Us and clocks are both physical objects, it time dilation affects one, it affects the other. Yes, the clock runs slower due to dilation, but so does everything else. If you intend to be as stubborn as you have been so far, then please prove that time dilation doesn't exist. It should be very easy to design an experiment. You will win a Nobel prize if you are correct. But you are wrong. 1
Handy andy Posted May 16, 2017 Author Posted May 16, 2017 This is incredibly wrong. I agree with the others; it's completely ridiculous that you would think that time dilation only occurs for clocks and nothing else in the universe. Us and clocks are both physical objects, it time dilation affects one, it affects the other. Yes, the clock runs slower due to dilation, but so does everything else. If you intend to be as stubborn as you have been so far, then please prove that time dilation doesn't exist. It should be very easy to design an experiment. You will win a Nobel prize if you are correct. But you are wrong. If I position 10 atomic clocks at the same altitude in geostationary orbits all ticking at the same speed, and fly another past all these stationery clocks, through space, which affects the clocks movement affecting the time it measures, it does not mean actual time has slowed down, it means the actual instrument has slowed down due to the medium space it is passing through. As the mobile clock passes each stationery clock it will see a slight difference in time, but it exists at the same instant in time according to the stationery clock, it has not slowed time. If I position 10 grandfather clocks at the same altitude in geostationary orbits all ticking at the same speed, and fly another past all these stationery clocks, through the air with the pendulum exposed to the wind, which affects the clocks movement affecting the time it measures, it does not mean actual time has slowed down, it means the actual instrument has slowed down due to the medium air it is passing through. As the mobile clock passes each stationery clock it will see a slight difference in time, but it exists at the same instant in time according to the stationery clock, it has not slowed time. Time is just a convenient invention to work out where we are in space at any given time. It does not slow down or speed up. A Photon goes at light speed indefinitely, in space that is moving relative to us. Time is not stationery for the photon, we can work out how long it will take to travel a given distance, and arrive at a position. One last time (pun intended) There is no such thing as absolute time, which your statement necessitates to be true. The instrument slows down used to measure time, in its spacial reference frame. Not actual time. You said "everything". But previously you said it only affected "mechanical atoms" and not "living atoms". So, is it everything or is it only atoms that are dead? No one is going to disagree with that. So I'm not sure what your point is. (Note that the people carrying the clocks will also be "reading different times"; i.e. have aged differently. Otherwise we would see our clocks slow down. Which doesn't happen.) Living organisms are not clocks their aging process are not governed by an instrument that is running slow due to it being moved through a medium. My point is Time Dilation is like the kings new clothes, it is an effect seen on instruments but it does not allow your cells to live longer in a different time reference frame. -1
Strange Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 Your idea doesn't make sense because this is a theory of relativity. So if a spaceship comes flying past you, you will see its clock run slow. You say that is a mechanical effect caused by the motion of the spaceship. But the people on that ship will see their clock run normally but will see your clock run slow. So how can that be a mechanical effect on the clock, when people disagree about which clock is affected? 1
Handy andy Posted May 16, 2017 Author Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) Why are the atoms in a clock different from the atoms in your body? What makes you think that the movements of fermions in a human body wont also be affected, by being in a gravitational field or moving through it. Everything is affected by the stretching of space, it doesn't cause you to age faster or slower, time dilation is just an effect of the way we measure time when an instrument is moving ref to another Your idea doesn't make sense because this is a theory of relativity. So if a spaceship comes flying past you, you will see its clock run slow. You say that is a mechanical effect caused by the motion of the spaceship. But the people on that ship will see their clock run normally but will see your clock run slow. So how can that be a mechanical effect on the clock, when people disagree about which clock is affected? The people on that ship will be aware that there clock is running slow and age normally. If there was a stationery ref base for an atomic clock in space, that was not expanding, perhaps you could compare your age by that, or perhaps look at the aging process in your cells, which is likely to be increased by being bashed around, and possibly damaged by being moved through gravitational fields, and distorted space, Edited May 16, 2017 by Handy andy
Strange Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) Everything is affected by the stretching of space, it doesn't cause you to age faster or slower, time dilation is just an effect of the way we measure time when an instrument is moving ref to another Why does it affect the clocks we use to measure, but not the cells in our body? So, here is a thought experiment. You are travelling at, say, 98% of the speed of light. According to your hypothesis, your clock would run slow, but your body would not. Therefore, you would be able to see that your clock was running slow; e.g. by comparing your heart rate (which is not affected) with your clock (which is). Is that correct? Edited May 16, 2017 by Strange
Handy andy Posted May 16, 2017 Author Posted May 16, 2017 Why does it affect the clocks we use to measure, but not the cells in our body? So, here is a thought experiment. You are travelling at, say, 98% of the speed of light. According to your hypothesis, your clock would run slow, but your body would not. Therefore, you would be able to see that your clock was running slow; e.g. by comparing your heart rate (which is not affected) with your clock (which is). Is that correct? If you did not want to have heart failure using your clock, your heart rate would have to speed up, otherwise you would die. Using a stationery reference clock your heart would tick as normal. Moving through space and gravitational fields is likely to cause increased aging to your cells and not cause them to go into some hibernation state.
Manticore Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion ofideas..." Charles Babbage 1
swansont Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 The particles in a clock are affected by differing levels of gravity and will change their motion accordingly, they are also affected by speed through space, and again will change their orbit accordingly. This implies a violation of Lorentz invariance, which has been confirmed (I just read a paper about this) to about a part in 10^8. What's your evidence that an atom (or any system)can tell if it's moving at constant velocity, or if it's stationary? The particles in a clock are affected by differing levels of gravity and will change their motion accordingly, they are also affected by speed through space, and again will change their orbit accordingly. An electron orbiting a atom at 0.5c travelling at 0.5c will have a peak speed through space of c and a minimum speed of 0, This contains a fundamental misunderstanding of modern atomic theory. Electrons do not orbit. You can have time, but not time dilation it is instrument error:) You keep claiming this, but have not provided any model or tests to back it up. That's not how this works.
Strange Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 It also fails to account for the fact that velocities do not add like that.
Lord Antares Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 Your idea doesn't make sense because this is a theory of relativity. So if a spaceship comes flying past you, you will see its clock run slow. You say that is a mechanical effect caused by the motion of the spaceship. But the people on that ship will see their clock run normally but will see your clock run slow. So how can that be a mechanical effect on the clock, when people disagree about which clock is affected? This bears repeating as it refutes your whole idea. It's a very simple example and it clearly shows why you're wrong. I think the focus should be on this now because it's the simplest possible way for you to understand you are wrong. You answered: The people on that ship will be aware that there clock is running slow and age normally. If there was a stationery ref base for an atomic clock in space, that was not expanding, perhaps you could compare your age by that, or perhaps look at the aging process in your cells, which is likely to be increased by being bashed around, and possibly damaged by being moved through gravitational fields, and distorted space, This makes no sense and completely ignores the question. I will repeat. The people on the ship will see the clock running normally. They may be aware of relativity, but to them, the clock runs NORMALLY, whereas you, who are stationary would see it run slow if the ship passed by you. HOW can it be just an effect of the stretching space if 2 different people will see it differently? Surely this would be detected if it were the case, as there WERE numerous experiments done on exactly this sort of thing. You must answer this to clear out the misconceptions.
Handy andy Posted May 16, 2017 Author Posted May 16, 2017 This implies a violation of Lorentz invariance, which has been confirmed (I just read a paper about this) to about a part in 10^8. What's your evidence that an atom (or any system)can tell if it's moving at constant velocity, or if it's stationary? This contains a fundamental misunderstanding of modern atomic theory. Electrons do not orbit. You keep claiming this, but have not provided any model or tests to back it up. That's not how this works. A Photon of light. Electrons are viewed in many different ways, I regard them as waves, moving in space, with a charge, momentum, and mass. Electrons exist in shells around a nucleus, outside of an atom. Does modern atomic theory state otherwise. All waves even photons are affected by gravity. The sub atomic particles are all waves they will all be affected by gravity, what part of physics states they wont be what proof do I need. It also fails to account for the fact that velocities do not add like that. What are you referring too
Strange Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 What are you referring too 0.5c + 0.5c does not equal c
Handy andy Posted May 16, 2017 Author Posted May 16, 2017 This bears repeating as it refutes your whole idea. It's a very simple example and it clearly shows why you're wrong. I think the focus should be on this now because it's the simplest possible way for you to understand you are wrong. You answered: This makes no sense and completely ignores the question. I will repeat. The people on the ship will see the clock running normally. They may be aware of relativity, but to them, the clock runs NORMALLY, whereas you, who are stationary would see it run slow if the ship passed by you. HOW can it be just an effect of the stretching space if 2 different people will see it differently? Surely this would be detected if it were the case, as there WERE numerous experiments done on exactly this sort of thing. You must answer this to clear out the misconceptions. The people in the ship will see the clock running, if they use it to measure their heart rates their pulse rate will appear raised, ie running at normal speed, The clock is just an instrument moving through space whose movement is being affected by its movement through space. What experiments have been done to show a living organism would live longer in space when travelling at speed.
Lord Antares Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 The people in the ship will see the clock running, if they use it to measure their heart rates their pulse rate will appear raised, ie running at normal speed, The clock is just an instrument moving through space whose movement is being affected by its movement through space. BUT PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE SHIP WILL SEE THE CLOCK RUN DIFFERENTLY. Can you understand that? If clocks were the only objects in the world affected by time dilation, people outside of the ship would see them run at the same rate as people inside the ship. Moreover, if clocks were the only objects affected by time dilation, the people inside the ship would see them run slower, not normally.
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