Italy makes 12 vaccinations compulsory for children

[StringJunky]

 

The government in Italy has ruled that children must be vaccinated against 12 common illnesses before they can enrol for state-run schools.

Prime Minister Paolo Gentiloni blamed a decrease in vaccinations in part on a "spread of anti-scientific theories".

Italy has recorded nearly three times as many measles cases so far this year than for all of 2016.

If children are not vaccinated by the age of six, the school starting age, their parents will be fined.

Conspiracy theories about the health risks of certain vaccinations - largely based on one discredited paper - have circulated around the world, leading some parents to shun immunisation.

In Italy, the number of two-year-olds vaccinated against measles has dropped from more than 90% to below 80%. This is well short of the World Health Organization's recommended coverage of 95% or more.

Measles is highly contagious and can lead to death.

"The lack of appropriate measures over the years and the spread of anti-scientific theories, especially in recent months, has brought about a reduction in protection," Mr Gentiloni told a press conference on Friday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39983799

Bit of a contrast to the US isn't it? No messing. Bravo Italy. What do you think?

[fiveworlds]

Bit of a contrast to the US isn't it? No messing. Bravo Italy. What do you think?​

 

 

That governments need to be stricter with such things. If we go to the trouble of developing a vaccine for an illness then we should vaccinate everybody against the disease in the hopes of killing it off for good and currently infected people should be quarantined from the rest of the general population until such a time as they are free from the risk of infecting others. If we only vaccinate some people the illness could mutate and become immune to that method of vaccination. The main problem with such a method is it would require fairly synchronized vaccination everywhere on earth.

Edited May 20, 2017 by fiveworlds

[John Cuthber]

One option is for the government to be more dictatorial.

Another is for them to be more educational, and to clamp down harder on those who- through their own self-interest- seek to spread lies and disinformation.

[Lord Antares]

Bit of a contrast to the US isn't it?

 

What is it like in the US? In Croatia, you are required to get some vaccines as well.

 

 

One option is for the government to be more dictatorial.

Another is for them to be more educational, and to clamp down harder on those who- through their own self-interest- seek to spread lies and disinformation.

 

Unfortunately, the way these people work, education will not help one bit, since their premise is that the government is lying about the information.

It is the most dangerous of misconceptions out there.

 

If you try to argue with them, you can see that there is no evidence that, for example, vaccines cause autism but they will asnwer ''how do you know that? That's the infomation they are making up.''

 

Unfortunately, due to the nature of their disbelief, it is impossible to convince them otherwise. They will things like the health industries are putting toxins into their vaccines on purpose so you have to buy meds later and they will never dislodge that belief no matter what you say.

[StringJunky]

 

What is it like in the US? In Croatia, you are required to get some vaccines as well.

Its a statistically significant number that are not doing it in the US. Just a NY Times article but gives an overview of the types that are not vaccinating:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/us/vaccine-critics-turn-defensive-over-measles.html?_r=0

[dimreepr]

 

What is it like in the US? In Croatia, you are required to get some vaccines as well.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the way these people work, education will not help one bit, since their premise is that the government is lying about the information.

It is the most dangerous of misconceptions out there.

 

If you try to argue with them, you can see that there is no evidence that, for example, vaccines cause autism but they will asnwer ''how do you know that? That's the infomation they are making up.''

 

Unfortunately, due to the nature of their disbelief, it is impossible to convince them otherwise. They will things like the health industries are putting toxins into their vaccines on purpose so you have to buy meds later and they will never dislodge that belief no matter what you say.

 

That's the price of the 'I'm alright jack' style of political machinations, that put's money above health and well-being.

 

Greed + fear = profit

[MigL]

Sometimes I'm proud to be of Italian descent.

 

I imagine the biggest problem is the influx of large numbers of immigrants from North Africa, who may not get their children vaccinated for the usual reasons ( lack of education, access and affordability of medical services, etc ).

 

It is, after all a public health risk, and making vaccinations mandatory is an acceptable solution, just like quarantine is for highly contagious deseases.

Or is quarantine also a denial of civil liberties ?

[StringJunky]

It is, after all a public health risk, and making vaccinations mandatory is an acceptable solution, just like quarantine is for highly contagious deseases.

Or is quarantine also a denial of civil liberties ?

That'a a good point. I can see a relation with being sectioned when a person has a serious psychiatric episode and is a danger to themselves or to others. Non-vaccination is a public health risk; it's as simple as that. it's not about personal choice, it's about societal responsibility. Some things have to be done collectively in order to work as intended.

Edited May 20, 2017 by StringJunky

[Phi for All]

You wait and see. It starts with government mandated vaccinations, then people start getting the idea government is a good thing, and might actually help. They start caring about their family's health, and contributing to the greater good, and pretty soon you can't sell any cigarettes and Big Macs and reclining couches. The whole economy goes right in the toilet.

 

I give Italy five, maybe six years tops.

[CharonY]

Sometimes I'm proud to be of Italian descent.

 

I imagine the biggest problem is the influx of large numbers of immigrants from North Africa, who may not get their children vaccinated for the usual reasons ( lack of education, access and affordability of medical services, etc ).

 

It is, after all a public health risk, and making vaccinations mandatory is an acceptable solution, just like quarantine is for highly contagious deseases.

Or is quarantine also a denial of civil liberties ?

Re: Italy, a friend of mine is Italian and when I asked about Italian politics a few years back, the answer was: "We got Berlusconi. But that is not the issue. The issue is that he is probably the sensible one...

 

But regarding vaccination:

Lack of education is potentially a big one (but I would be careful about singling out people from a specific area, the data is rather sketchy on this). It makes people susceptible to manipulation, including from anti-vaxxer groups. Those people are being blamed for a recent measles outbreak in Minnesota.

 

 

 

The doubts and fears created a "natural experiment" in which vaccination rates plummeted, and disease broke out, said David Johnson, program manager with the Hennepin County Health Department.

"What we have now is a community that was really influenced by these anti-vaccine groups. And they've performed a natural experiment: to forgo the measles vaccine based on this propaganda," Johnson told NBC News.

Somali immigrants have been the hardest hit by the outbreak, Minnesota's health department said.

"We've seen that the vaccine rates in the community that's being affected right now were once about the same or even a little higher than our average. They've dropped to about half of that," Johnson added.

 

 

 

By the time Hewitt’s study was published in 2013, anti-vaccination activists had already claimed Cedar-Riverside. Andrew Wakefield—the study-falsifying founder of the modern anti-vaxx movement—met with upset Somali families three times between 2010 and 2011.

 

However, education alone may be insufficient as quite a few anti-vaccination folks are actually well-educated and actively engage in outreach in the belief that they are doing something good.

 

 

The answer used to be education—the more educated you were on the issue the more likely you were to get vaccinated,” says Michael Osterholm, director of the University of Minnesota’s Center for Infectious Disease Research. Those days are over, he says. In no small part thanks to the proliferation of misleading information on the web. “The challenge is for scientists to be humble and acknowledge that in this day and age facts will not win the day,” he says.

 

In fact, it seems to be less of an issue of immigration (Romania is the other European country with a significant measles outbreak, but has few immigrants to speak of), but the growing influence of anti-vaccination groups.

Edited May 21, 2017 by CharonY

[John Cuthber]

...quite a few anti-vaccination folks are actually well-educated ...

Because they are anti- vaccination we can deduce that there is at least one gap in their education.

In the relevant field, they are not well educated.

[CharonY]

Well, no argument there.

[HB of CJ]

Are we doing the Human Species any good by giving everybody all these shots? It is a heck of a thing to have your kids get sick and perhaps die, but nearly all the time they catch something, are sick for awhile, get over it, and usually never get sick from that bug or disease again. Naturally acquired immunity. Eventually such gets passed on to the next Human generation.

 

My concern is not so much any possible bad side effects of the government required immunization but rather what happens if such programs are allowed to continue to some imagined total end? Then, for whatever reason, be accidental or designed, such mandated government programs suddenly stop? What then? Are we perhaps setting ourselves up? Respectfully.

 

ex RN

[dimreepr]

Are we doing the Human Species any good by giving everybody all these shots? It is a heck of a thing to have your kids get sick and perhaps die, but nearly all the time they catch something, are sick for awhile, get over it, and usually never get sick from that bug or disease again. Naturally acquired immunity. Eventually such gets passed on to the next Human generation.

 

My concern is not so much any possible bad side effects of the government required immunization but rather what happens if such programs are allowed to continue to some imagined total end? Then, for whatever reason, be accidental or designed, such mandated government programs suddenly stop? What then? Are we perhaps setting ourselves up? Respectfully.

 

ex RN

 

You seem to misunderstand what a vaccination is.

Then, for whatever reason, be accidental or designed, such mandated government programs suddenly stop? What then? Are we perhaps setting ourselves up?

 

No more than letting our kids get sick.

But much less dangerous.

Edited May 21, 2017 by dimreepr

[CharonY]

Are we doing the Human Species any good by giving everybody all these shots? It is a heck of a thing to have your kids get sick and perhaps die, but nearly all the time they catch something, are sick for awhile, get over it, and usually never get sick from that bug or disease again. Naturally acquired immunity. Eventually such gets passed on to the next Human generation.

 

 

 

A) as you said. some of the kids will die or are going to be affected for life needlessly. Take a look what polio did to children. B) acquired immunity is not perfect, and in cases of virus you often still carry them with you. Do you know what shingles are? C) Acquired immunity, as the name implies does not get passed to the next generation.

 

I think that is actually a good demonstration of John's point.

[John Cuthber]

Are we doing the Human Species any good by giving everybody all these shots? It is a heck of a thing to have your kids get sick and perhaps die, but nearly all the time they catch something, are sick for awhile, get over it, and usually never get sick from that bug or disease again. Naturally acquired immunity. Eventually such gets passed on to the next Human generation.

 

My concern is not so much any possible bad side effects of the government required immunization but rather what happens if such programs are allowed to continue to some imagined total end? Then, for whatever reason, be accidental or designed, such mandated government programs suddenly stop? What then? Are we perhaps setting ourselves up? Respectfully.

 

ex RN

All the proof I needed for my point about education.

 

There are (very simplistically) two ways to acquire immunity.

Get the disease and have a serious risk of death or long term damage or

get vaccinated and have a much lower risk of death or long term damage.

 

And you need to ask if one of those is better than the other?

 

Re."Eventually such gets passed on to the next Human generation."

No, it doesn't. Or, at least, not in a helpful way.

Also "My concern is not so much any possible bad side effects of the government required immunization but"

might be the logical fallacy known as "the thin end of the wedge" or it might be more focussed on

"Then, for whatever reason, be accidental or designed, such mandated government programs suddenly stop? What then? Are we perhaps setting ourselves up?"

Well, one of the better known vaccination programs has now been halted. We no longer have a smallpox vaccination program.

Because we effectively eliminated the disease.

We are well on the way to doing that with polio.

What would happen if we stopped, for example, the measles vaccine programme?

Initially there would be a spike in infections- the total number of people (mainly children) killed would be less than the number who have been saved by the programme in its history.

And the rates would then fall back to "the bad old days" where a fair number of kids died or were left harmed by it every year until we got our act back together and started vaccinating again.

[KipIngram]

Yes. Vaccines are often weakened strains of the very disease they are vaccinating you against. You give the immune system a chance to "meet and greet" the disease in the context of an easy to win battle. The immune system then remembers that, and if the real deal shows up later it can immediately muster the appropriate defenses and take the disease out before it gets a beachhead in your system. There's really no difference between training the immune system via vaccine vs. training it by "catching the disease," except that vaccines carry less risk of you succumbing to / suffering from the disease.

 

Vaccination programs are unquestionably a positive thing, and programs that ensure everyone has access to a solid program of vaccinations is the very first thing we should implement in any sort of program of public assistance.

Its a statistically significant number that are not doing it in the US. Just a NY Times article but gives an overview of the types that are not vaccinating:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/us/vaccine-critics-turn-defensive-over-measles.html?_r=0

 

My children all had to have a particular set of vaccinations before entering school as well. I'm in Texas - is it really the case that there are states that don't require this, or are you just saying that there should be more vaccines on the list?

 

I'm generally not a fan of coercively "protecting people from their own stupidity," but in this case that's not really the way to look at it - I do support protecting other people from a particular person's stupidity. People who don't get themselves and their children properly vaccinated are putting everyone at risk.

[StringJunky]

... is it really the case that there are states that don't require this, or are you just saying that there should be more vaccines on the list?...

From what I understand, it's not mandatory but children can be excluded from schools for not having them.

 

 

No US federal laws mandate vaccination, but all 50 states require certain vaccinations for children entering public schools. Most states offer medical and religious exemptions; and some states allow philosophical exemptions. http://vaccines.procon.org/

[CharonY]

 

 

Vaccination programs are unquestionably a positive thing, and programs that ensure everyone has access to a solid program of vaccinations is the very first thing we should implement in any sort of program of public assistance.

 

 

I will add that obviously vaccination programs are vetted for being beneficial and for each vaccine there is a process that makes a risk-benefit analysis which also includes the efficacy of a given vaccine. It is rather obvious but there will sometimes be discussion whether to include or exclude a certain a vaccine in the recommended panel (which happened in Italy during the early drafts) which can sometimes confuse the public.

[KipIngram]

Yes, that sounds right. I'm not familiar with the area, but surely there is some way to deploy such an analysis. As long as that process was guided by the genuine welfare of the population and not politics I think it makes great sense. Here in Texas a few years ago a new vaccine was proposed. I forget the exact one, but in some way the condition it vaccinated against was transmitted through sexual activity (possibly other ways as well, but that was the one that caused the controversy). Our conservative governor opposed the vaccine on the grounds that it would "encourage promiscuity." I don't think the disease was life-threatening, but it was permanent once you contracted it and caused an impact on quality of life. Only girls were affected.

 

I consider myself a generally conservative person, but I honestly did want to smack the guy. That's just not the way you ought to make such decisio

 

Edit: It passed - he didn't get his way.

Edited May 21, 2017 by KipIngram

[CharonY]

Maybe it was HPV? After all, getting cancer is so much better...

 

Actually in Italy there was a ferocious discussion as there was some conflict of interest (people on the board had financial ties to the vaccine producers). From what I glimpsed there were initially some questionable choices, though it was not terribly controversial as most vaccines were also recommended in other countries.

[KipIngram]

Yes, that sounds right (HPV).

Anyway, the governor's mind set struck me as "Hey, if you won't choose to adhere to my personal brand of morality, then I'll make sure you're too scared not too."

[dimreepr]

Anyway, the governor's mind set struck me as "Hey, if you won't choose to adhere to my personal brand of morality, then I'll make sure you're too scared not too."

 

Sometimes you should be scared.

 

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/smallpox/en/

[KipIngram]

Maybe so, but for the right reasons. I am completely opposed to the government dictating our moral behavior. As opposed to "ethical" behaviors like "don't hurt people" and "don't steal" and so on - enforcing that sort of thing is exactly the government's business.

[dimreepr]

Maybe so, but for the right reasons.

 

Is smallpox not the right reason?

 

I am completely opposed to the government dictating our moral behavior.

 

 

Me to, but I fail to see how a proven vaccine falls into that category.